Liam: 0:05

Welcome to the Trash Language Podcast. Attendance is 100%, immediately I'm Halliburton, Camp Shannoy, Ban Ahmed Dragon Shield's our sponsor, they have great sleeves, I always use Dragon Shield specifically the Nomat version. Now I'm using the Nomat version, that's what Chris Franco said I should use yeah, Nomat, Standard, Purple, because I play Gardevoir,

Cam: 0:24

I think it's called classic.

Liam: 0:26

yeah, that's the cur the current look. Yeah, Classic, sure. Classic Dragon Shield, yes, Shannoy. Yeah,

Abaan: 0:31

when I Dragon Shields I'm a dual mat fiend, bro. I love my dual mats. Like, if I'm gonna use a Dragon Shield, it's a dual mat.

Liam: 0:38

Yeah, the dual mats have grown on me. I got a bunch of the Orchid ones too.

Cam: 0:43

Come on, bro, not even saying that we're the only podcast about Pokemon? Jesus, bro.

Liam: 0:48

Oh yeah. We're, we're the only podcast about the Pokemon Trading card camp. Actually, probably somewhat true. I, I get where the joke is. yeah, I guess this week the most interesting thing to me is y'all had your Monday meetup yesterday.

Cam: 1:03

Yes.

Liam: 1:04

about our testing results?

Cam: 1:06

Sure, Regidrago ran everything and has been for the last six years. The last couple weeks it yesterday it went 7 0, just clapped up Dialga, clapped up Lugia, 2 decks that we were like, Huh, they're not like, we don't, I know that, like who was it, Tablemon put out like a big 6, and they put Lugia in there. I think our group is like on a big 5 and we don't respect Lugia, and then it proceeded to get like, go 0 against Regidrago, went 0 3 against Charizard These kind of outside the tier one, or the big main decks that we're trying, they all kind of fell flat on their face. Dragonbolt fell flat on its face, too. And so I guess the big five is the big five for a

Liam: 1:50

really quick. Were, were you playing the Cino, Lucia, or

Cam: 1:54

Yes.

Liam: 1:56

Yeah.

Cam: 1:57

And I think like, just to clarify to our Oh, I was gonna say, just to clarify, our top five decks that we've, like, I'd deem that the big five is Regidrago, Gardi, Charizard Blocklax, and Raging Bull. I think those are like the five decks we think are like, the the decks, you yeah. And we don't think Lugia is part of it, unfortunately. It just hasn't been good enough in our testing. We want to try some other things out. I think we were talking about Shaman EX with Legacy Energy. Maybe it beats Charizard, but I don't know, like, in my mind, there's just so many other matchups that Lugia needs to worry about and is not that great into. So, I don't know if it's that, like, I don't know if a random Shaman is going to fix all its problems.

Liam: 2:41

I completely agree.

Cam: 2:43

Yeah, and so, I think the biggest problem too oh, yeah. oh, go on, go on. I was gonna say the biggest problem I have with Lugia is like, It used to be able to win when it had those mid starts, like the turn 2 read the win, like, If I Archeops by like turn 3, 4, I'll win, like, eventually, right? But like now, it's like, it feels like you just have to hit the nuts to have a chance in a lot of these matchups, and like, Lugia's never really that good at hitting, like, the turn 2 Archeops hit you. It's like, that's always been a struggling point for the deck.

Liam: 3:13

That's major facts, bro. Amazing take.

Cam: 3:19

Yeah, I agree. I think Cameron Kawasaki has said, like, in one or two of the games, he either just didn't get turn one Charmander or he didn't get turn two Charizard. In two of the three or two of the four games and still ended up winning because Dusknoir was was that good. At kind of coming back and taking out Cinchinos and kind of ramping up your damage to knock out Lugia, things like that. Or just going after potentially Archeops too so Cinchino's not really a threat. So yeah, it's kind of, yeah, I'm, I think I'm just done with Lugia, unfortunately. Any decks that you think are still worth it? Any of the Like, since we limited those three decks, is there any deck that you're, like, very interested in a bomb? Of, like, the remaining decks we need to test? Mm hmm. Mm I think the one thing I was like, really interested in, like it's not from like a fringe deck, but it's like, of the big five, the one that used to be sticking out to me was actually Raging Bull. I was thinking like, why is this deck like, even like, considered like, that good? Like, and like, I, I was playing it again last night Liam was watching me, but that deck, don't know, I don't know why I stopped playing it, genuinely, like, I was playing it again with the 4 stretcher build and I was like, Pokestop, the worst Pokestop pre stretcher that would just like, made you want to like, quit the game, like, oh man, I discarded like, Teal Mask, Teal Mask Bundle or something, or something tragic, right, or something even worse than that. Like, now it's like, oh, well, I have four stretchers. Like, I use, like, the stretchers without even, like, thinking. Like, I'll stretcher for, like, a grass randomly to, like, Teal Mask. I'll stretcher for, like, the Pokemon I Pokestop. Like, I just use all, like, the stretchers and, like, I don't know. I feel like you don't even have to think that hard. Like, it's not like you have to carefully, like, orchestrate how these four stretchers are gonna be used. You just, like, see one and you play it for, like, the best thing in your discard. And, it's it's lit. I don't know. I I really like Raging Bolt again.

Liam: 5:06

I've constantly said I would not play a low aura deck, and that's the reason I wouldn't play Raging Bolt. And what that kind of means is, I think you want to go into a tournament where the expectation is, is that like, if things happen as you predict, you win the event. And I think That's, That's, not the case for a deck that can't say, when I set up I win. Right, like, when you play like, Aroma Gardevoir, right, that was like what Henry Chao was saying. Like, he's like, dude, when I get my Curlius out on turn two, I always win. And like, I feel like being able to say that is like, critical to going X2 1 in an event, like consistently. And like, like at least having some belief that like, you are, you are in control of the game, where like, every time you like, sequence better. Your win percentages go up, as opposed to like, you know, whenever Charizard's sequence is better, they're like, their chances of getting to a lone Radzard board and just winning go up. And like, your win percentages go down. Like, I feel like that, like, control over the game is important. That's what they refer to as agency.

Cam: 6:10

I, I mean, I, I understand that point. But, I just, and, and maybe they, these decks don't end up winning the whole tournament. But, I just think there is always a place for, like, super aggressive decks at the international level. They seem to do well. Like, Quasigiex is, like, I think of that deck where I don't even think many people were thinking about that card, and it just, like, a very aggressive version with Marshadow, like, ended up doing really well. And I don't know, Raging Bull has kind of been ramping up to be that deck, and it's, like, the best it's been in a really long time, and you get to play, like, two of the best cards from the set, Peasantipity and Nightly Stretcher, and one of them is in a four of count, right, and you wouldn't even play more than one Peasantipity, so you're, like, Playing the best card from the newest set, and I know it's like, not the best set, but I think like, if you get to play some of the best cards from the newest sets, it's pretty good. The deck's bound to be exciting. So,

Liam: 7:06

right?

Cam: 7:09

I think my,

Liam: 7:10

I will say, I think a key distinction there, like, I think when aggressive decks work best, or like, those like, these like, hyper aggressive decks. Decks like Raging Bolt is when they had, like, the light loose Marshadow, right? Like, that, that I think was, like, an era where the, the aggressive decks were super strong. Because I think, I think it meets that, like, you know, you're proacti you're proactively able to, like, take control of the board. And, like, if, if you draw well and you hit, like, the pieces you need to hit every turn, you're, you put yourself in, like, a high position or a high percentage position to win. As opposed to like, a good spot to win, which is like, what raging bolt constantly feels like, which is like, if I do everything right, and everything goes right, I get to like, a 55 45 against the general meta. Whereas when you play a deck like Gardevoir, like, if everything goes right, you feel like you're just like, 100 0 into everything. And of course that's like, a bit of an exaggeration, but like you just feel like you can't

Cam: 8:05

yeah, but, I think, I think we're, I think you're underestimating, well, I think you're underestimating, like, the consistency of which things go right for Raging Bull and for Gardevoir. Like, and in a, I something that Kobe and I were talking about just today, is I actually think you not, maybe not you, but just the general public might be, like, of worlds, might be underestimating how many people are not willing to gentleman's. And,

Liam: 8:35

Yeah, dude, I feel like you shouldn't approach this as like, world's worlds because there were like, it was so easy to get an invite

Cam: 8:40

no, no, no, no, no, no, it's, it's not, really that, but I just think, like, I think a lot of top players just assume that people think like them. And that, that their logic. is the logic that everyone else is using when they're making their tournament run. But the issue with that is that there are people who only end up going to one or two worlds in their life, and they really want to make this one matter, and the funny thing about this year is that it doesn't matter if you make it past day one. You actually still end up on the final standings. Before, you'd only end up on the final standings if you made it to day two. So how many players are going to say no, I don't want a Gentleman's. Sorry, I'm sorry that I'm tying and knocking you out of Day 2, but like, I'd rather be 200th than 300th. And, I think that will actually, like, not just that, but to general people who won't be trusting of General Agreements, like, I think Gentleman's Agreements might be lower unless you're playing against a top player who, like, specifically thinks that. And I don't know, that should be taken into account, because if you get stuck tying a lot with Guardian. It's gonna hurt, like, it's gonna hurt a lot, and I think your matchup against Rago is bad, and I think Colt, like, has none of those issues. You're gonna finish three games. I like, dude, I also think the catcher list of Bolt is actually like so apt at like picking apart like small weaknesses, like, I just think that like, when, when you're playing other decks, like, it just doesn't feel like, like when you're playing Zard, it doesn't feel like you get to like pick apart like exactly their board all the time, you just kind of like, Sometimes you just have to swing, like, you don't really get to, like, boss exactly what you want, cause, like, you only get to search for one card a turn, and, like, I've just been really liking the aspect of, like, I get to, like, spam bundle as much as I want, cause I have four stretcher, and I have, like, catchers, and, like, I don't know, it does feel like a high roll deck, and, like, I'm not saying I'm gonna play bold, that's, like, not the point I'm making, it's just that I think that, somehow, I think I just ran really cold to the deck for a bit, and I just, like, Literally stop touching it. I think it was like, I think we played one Conquest series where Bolt got like 4 0'd. And I was like, alright, I'm literally never playing this deck again. But I think that was a, an overreaction. I think the deck's actually better than I thought. It was just a pretty pretty sad series for the deck. Yeah, I think that also happened with Liam and I's testing, like, the deck does have just cold streaks where we played Zard, and I, like, I still think the match was 50 50, and then, like, he just 5 0'd me, and then that felt terrible. And then I think we played If you remove that set, I think we ended up going, like, relatively even after that. And I'm sure you'll hit a hot streak where you're just like, Oh, I'm gonna actually hit better than that too, right? It's just one of those decks that, like, depending on where you catch it, like, will kind Yeah, like, if it's a true coin flip, you can actually expect that, like, there's gonna be mega streaks. Like, any, like, if you're truly flipping a coin over and over and over again, like, you're not supposed to go heads, tails, heads, tails. You're supposed to go, like, heads, heads, heads, heads, tails, tails, tails, tails, tails, like, heads, tails, heads, tails, like, it's supposed to be pretty varied. Like, it's pretty hard for even a human to, like, ever, like, conceptualize, like, what a coin flip's, like, actually supposed to look like in, like, a hundred in a row, right? So, it's like Pretty, pretty expected that, like, sometimes you'll just get 5 0'd if the matchup's 50 50. I, but, like, it's just frustrating, right? When that happens as bull, it's, like, the most frustrating deck, I feel like, when you're drawing kind of bad. Or you're just, like, flipping tails on the super important catchers. Like, some catchers are more important than others, right? When you're playing through the game. Yeah, sometimes there's a catcher that's, like, that's got a follow up catcher, you know? And then you flip heads on the first one, and you're like, oh, whatever. Nice. Guess I'm lucky. Heh heh. When you decide to flip heads, and it's not even you deciding, it's when you, like, happen to roll heads, it's like, super, and that's what makes it feel so bad, too, at the same time. Because you feel like you sequenced right, you did everything you could, and at the end of the day, it was slightly out of your control, right? You know one thing I've been trying to put some thought into though? I think the matchup against Blocklax is like, pretty unfixable. I was like, if I could fix this like, Raging Bull vs. Blocklax matchup, I would actually be way more inclined to think about the deck more. But, the problem is like, I feel like people are not talking about Handheld Fan enough, man. Like, there's like, no counterplay to Handheld Fan. Like, eventually you have to bench the Sandy Shocks, and then the Snorlax will just Handheld Fan, and Sandy Shocks doesn't hit for weakness. And they just put move your fighting energies onto something random. Like, you can switch cart and, like, discard them all with Raging Bull. You only got, like, two or three switch carts, and it just, like, it just gets out of control, like, very fast. Like, there's just, like, really nothing you can do against this Handheld Fan. And Catcher of Sandy Shocks, over and over and over again. Question for you, what if they also played Mew? Do you, and they used Mew, and so they can one shot Snorlax, I believe, by copying an attack. Yeah, and they can use it like, the point is that it's your Mimikyu and your Yeah, I thought about that too. I I just don't like Mew because it's like, not an ancient Pokemon, and like I'm already playing the Pheasantipidae, and Greninja, and Squawk. So it's like, it feels like too much, and I don't think I restart that often with the deck. like,

Liam: 13:47

you also don't have that

Cam: 13:48

too big. I keep Pokestopping into

Liam: 13:50

pressure up when you're

Cam: 13:51

too many cards. Like, it doesn't feel like I get enough restarts.

Liam: 13:54

So, and like, the, the Mute takes like, three manual attachments. It's like, not very easy to get into.

Cam: 13:59

that's true.

Liam: 14:00

Into the Mimikyu, yeah. It also three hits into cape, right? Which is like pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah.

Cam: 14:09

And yeah, exactly. If Mimikyu caped, it's pretty tough. And I think Starlox should be playing One Mist, but that's like a personal preference. Personal thing of mine. Not sure if that's going to be a thing that everyone's playing. I guess I guess one question I had for you guys was like, With Draugr, like, is, like, are we rerunning Radsart or not? I think it's a, I think it's a no, unless, unless the Radsart's expressly for, like, Mimikyu miss. Then, like, I'm down with it. Right now, I think I would start out right now as no. I typically try to start out with decks, like, that are a bit more consistent to probably cut it for consistency slot, but then as we test more, if it's something that seems to come up more, it might find its way back in, but, I'm not sure if we're quite there yet in our own testing, maybe other people are, but yeah, that's kind of how I feel about that one. Just that deck is so I don't think you need it a lot of the time, this deck just runs through everything.

Liam: 15:05

Yeah, Drago goes insane. Goes insane. I wouldn't play the right card.

Cam: 15:13

Maybe if it like, specifically fixes oh, sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, you can never, like, have a Radzard board. Like, you can, like, always, if you get to two, it's hard to tackle that on three, like, it's just not happening, realistically. And, like, at two, like, they'll just gust around it, like, it's pointless. They'll just kill something random on the bench, like, I think it's a pretty, pretty bad attacker. So, I think it's really just for Mimikyu Mist. well you just answered my question, because I was thinking if it fixes Bold, but then like, they just bundle around it. So, right, so it doesn't even matter that much. You'd have to play two, you'd have to play a Cleffa or something, some random nonsense to like, not get bundled. But that's, that's so stupid, we're not doing that. Have you seen the list? There has been lists with Clefla, do you like that, or no? And it sounds like no, I'm assuming. I'm a Cleffa hater, to be honest.

Liam: 16:05

Not at all, bro.

Cam: 16:06

In that deck at least. I think Cleffa has like a lot of application maybe still, in Zard. But like, I don't like that it dies to the monkey, I don't like it against Dragonfall decks, I don't, it's obviously terrible, it's like Block Lax, any kind of lock deck, like, I don't know, I think Cleffa was really, really good in that span of time when we were all like starting to play it, and then it's, it's kind of bad again.

Liam: 16:30

Picked off too easy right now.

Cam: 16:33

Yeah, it feels terrible, like they're not even working for it, like at least before, like, when they killed Cleffa, you felt, you felt pretty good, it didn't ma it didn't matter because that was their attack, right?

Liam: 16:42

It also feels like the alternative is, is pretty good, right? Like you the, the Poffin bib engine is not like the only thing that makes Zard work anymore, right? Because you have the Fez, you can lean on the nest balls heavier,

Cam: 16:54

I personally think you should just play both. You should just play all of them. Like, everything but Cleffa. Like, you should play the Poffin Bib, and the Nest Balls, and the Fezendipity Rodom. Like, just play everything.

Liam: 17:05

yeah, I mean, I, I assume you're just going like 3 3 Poffin nest and then 1 1 bib, yeah.

Cam: 17:10

Yeah. And the Fez. I think Lumi might be kinda bad. I think Lumi's probably the worst part of that engine. I'm, like, very close to cutting that card and just playing Rodom.

Liam: 17:19

Dude, Lumi's crazy, bro.

Cam: 17:23

I think Lumi, like, okay, Lumi feels good when you play it, right? But, like The permanent, like, staying on your bench has just it's just felt very annoying. Like, you already are, like, so limited, because you want to, like, Fez, you want to have the Bib, you want to have, like, the Pidgeot, obviously, you want, like, a Charmeleon.

Liam: 17:39

But, also for, yeah. F first of all, it's, it's a good, it's a good early game card. Right? Of course. It turns your ultra balls from like, nothing starts into like amazing full boards. Right. Um, but not only that, it's also like it's a late game out or it's, it is like a massive late game out. into, into bosses, into turros, into, you know, whatever supporters you need to keep going and like particularly in matchups where it's like hard to like consistently stream Zards in the mid game, like something like Raging Bolt or even like Drago, like with the Ogre Pawns, where like, you know, you're having to stream pieces in succession. Being able to draw like into Lumi or Lumi out and then spawn in like basically every card that you need is, is insane. I mean, alright.

Cam: 18:28

mean, there's a reason I haven't cut the Lumi yet. I just, like, that was, like, my consideration. I think it's, like, the worst part It's, like, the worst part of that engine, though, because I think Fez kind of it does the part of the job that you're describing, like, It doesn't fully do it, obviously, but like, that's its role, and then like, I'm playing enough Ness balls that I consistently see the Rotom early, and then I like, get an Arven, and then I feel like, at this point, like, I don't need Lumi early, can I have Fez for that late game Fez bib for that late game coverage, like, I don't know, I get what you're saying, and like, there's a re obviously there's a reason why I like Lumi's good, and like, I've had it in the deck, but, I'm, I think

Liam: 19:06

I know what you're saying as

Cam: 19:07

too attached to

Liam: 19:08

like very vulnerable. That's why I've cut it from the current Pidget list and like, switched more into the like, Lax, Nest Ball, Rotom, Engine, right?

Cam: 19:17

yeah,

Liam: 19:18

Because, yeah, like, it feels like it becomes really easy for decks to take six prizes once the Lumi hits the board. Yeah,

Cam: 19:26

yeah exactly, and like, I think I always try to challenge cards that like feel good, like Lumi, like when you need it, feels good, sure, but like, you can't, like, you only have 60 cards, like I don't, if every single card, like, feels good, you

Liam: 19:40

from the feel good is very important, right?

Cam: 19:44

yeah,

Liam: 19:44

I think getting to what you actually need and nothing else. That's it's really good.

Cam: 19:49

You know what deck I've been, like, thinking about a lot, or, like, playing, is I've been playing Block Lax, and I'm trying to think, like, what the optimal A Spec is, cause I was actually playing a little bit of the Iron Hands, or the Iron Thorns matchup, like, you know, like, just wanted to get a couple games in, just to see, and, like, it was actually looking pretty good for obviously be considered part of I, like, I'm gonna play some more games, but the Seeker box has been, like, just crazy, like, you're under, like, Iron Thorns, like, we're testing out Squad Thorns, and, like, you're under that, like, Spiritomb type lock, essentially, and, like, it didn't feel bad at all, because, like, I just, like, if I hit an Arvan, I hit I hit my Seeker box, and then if I ever hit, like, one of the three, like, crucial pieces, like, one of the two Colognes of the Vacuum, I literally win the game, like, on the spot, right? So then, I was, I was actually finding the matchup to be, like, fairly pleasant in the, like, five games I played. I didn't think it was like as bad as I was being told it was, you know?

Liam: 20:39

found that match sucks.

Cam: 20:43

Like, were you playing, like, were you playing the list that we talked about, with the secret box and like the two Mimikyus, everything?

Liam: 20:49

I mean, I've played this with like Not like a constant list. I didn't have like a dedicated session. I just hit it on the ladder and stuff, you know. On, on both sides. And, yeah, it is I find it's pretty easy for Thorns. Also because they can, like, pre commit the VAC. Like, as soon as you put the tool down, they just,

Cam: 21:06

Oh, I never

Liam: 21:06

go

Cam: 21:06

the cape

Liam: 21:07

VAC.

Cam: 21:08

I don't think you do

Liam: 21:08

yeah,

Cam: 21:09

You, literally are not allowed to, right?

Liam: 21:11

yeah, then they just go, like, you know, like, Arvin, Cologne, City. And if you don't have the Mimikyu active, like, sometimes that's, like, okay. But it usually feels like you're just, like, giving up prizes, like, you know, every other turn. Maybe, like, every three turns, right? Like I don't know, I didn't feel like I had a great way to slow them down. And like, I didn't have a great way to stream, like, Sistar's Eerie either to make progress

Cam: 21:32

Maybe I've been getting lucky, like, maybe I've been like over realizing, like, what I'm expecting. I, I, I'm planning on playing 20 games tonight. Like, to finish my, like, 15, like, playing another 15. I went 2 and 3, I'll just tell you. Like, as in, like, Thorns won 2, and Starlocks won 3. And, maybe I was getting a little lucky, but, like, I don't know, these sisters just have to hit one card, or, like, and you can't ever take a knockout without using city, right? So, I was playing four cities in the Thorns list, so I've been playing them down, like, whenever I see them. But, like, I'd sometimes, like, after the secret box bumps the first city, I'd sometimes get into, like, a drought, and it's, like, so awkward, like, or sometimes I'd have the situation where it's, like I'm waiting to hit my city, or waiting to hit my Cologne, so that I can like, do the combo, like, oh, I can like, city, Cologne, VAC, and like, whenever I see a city, I just play it, and then there were some situations where I'd be like, there was the Luxcape on, and I I'd had the Cologne, but I didn't even have it out to the the vacuum, so I was like, I can't I literally can't rip it yet, so I'd have to wait, and like,

Liam: 22:27

How, How, aggressively are you benching down, like, extra bench Pokemon in the matchup? Because I found I was doing it pretty aggressively with Snorlax, and that meant that, like, that gave them, like, leeway in not having to constantly find city. I also found I wasn't bumping the city very often. Like, once I play the city, like It's sat there for like a pretty, pretty long time, usually.

Cam: 22:47

I I managed to bump two cities a game, I think, pretty consistently, like, I just Sylene, I played two Sylene, I just ripped one, so, yeah. Like, I box for the first Artisan to bump the city, right? And then I Silene, and I, like, grab Artisan, and I bump it, and, like, that sometimes just, like, slows them, like, a huge amount. Especially because they don't want to just it just feels bad as Thorns, like, some you don't want to always just, like, sit there with, like, waiting for a combo. Like, sometimes you do want to research, and sometimes your research hands, like, have an extra city in them, right? That's especially like, one game, I was like, I'm not gonna sit here and wait forever. I researched away a city, I had one left in deck, And then the Snorlax just, like, Syleene hit on Artisan, bumped it, and there was one city left in deck and Thorns could not find it for, like, so long that, like, eventually the Sisters caught, like, the Cologne, or the VAC, and it was over. And, like, yeah, you could take the knockout without city, but then I was like, all Snorlax has to do in this spot, if you take the knockout without city, is, like, Rescue Stretcher and I win the game, right? And I had a a backup Snorlax on the bench with a tool, so, like, any boss didn't matter, because I was just Penny, right? So, like, it's not like they could cologne and win the game. They couldn't boss take a

Liam: 23:52

maybe if you're playing like the double Mimikyu stretcher, it might be like a better matchup.

Cam: 23:57

Yeah, that's I mean, of course, I'm playing all that. And and Yelchier, too. To, like, recover it, too, if you have to. It's not ideal, but The stretchers look the best way. The A S tier S I don't know. I imagine it felt fine. I think if the if the Ra the Thorns played a third cologne or a second VAC, it would be very bad. Like, unplayable bad. But having the exactly enough stuff is like, very sus for them to win. I'll report back though, I'll report back after playing, finishing the 20. I'll let you know.

Liam: 24:30

It's interesting.

Cam: 24:31

Oh yeah, we can talk, we can talk about something else, we can talk about anything. was doing really well yesterday. I think we've been pretty heavily set, or heavily using Reset Stamp, and I think most of us feel like that's correct. But I was reading stuff on Ivanov's article. That he posts, I think, on Aleph Shemansky's whatever you call it, sub stack. And I kind of skimmed the list the first time and just saw the Hero's Cape and then I brought it up to you guys. And then I kind of went back last night and read kind of his reasoning behind it and it seems pretty good. Now, obviously, we don't have the recent stamp, which has been so powerful for us, but it potentially gives you outs to Regidra.

Liam: 25:16

reasoning? Was it just the you know, just stretching, you know, some critical stuff? Or like, I guess, was it the examples that you

Cam: 25:23

Yeah, it was just examples I messaged. Like, it seems like it could give you a chance against Drago, and it's felt miserable against Drago up until this point. And so it's just one of those things where, if it's better against Drago, like, at this point, because Drago's so popular, right, it might be worth it to play it.

Liam: 25:44

No, yeah, I rock with it. I actually think we should cut the stamp. I don't know why. Like, we've literally, I feel like for like two weeks, we've been like, Oh my god, bro, like, this stamp sucks, but like, you have to play it because it's a stamp. It's so good. But like, why is it every time I see the card it sucks, bro? I, we should play a different

Cam: 26:00

I don't know if it's, I don't know if it sucks, I think it's alright, I think it's pretty solid, it's just like, into Drago,

Liam: 26:06

just goes mid. It just goes mid. I feel like, I, I feel like I'm like constantly complaining about how the card is like, not good, like, concretely and like. I guess that Guardi matchup, because that's all I play, but yeah, it sucks against Guardi.

Cam: 26:17

And it stinks against Drago, I wanted to ask you like, Do you think if you're playing Guardi, like, do you think it's even playable if they like, the heroes keep their Charmeleon? Like, that seems so, so cool. Frustrating. Like, you can CC kill it with Guardi, but like, whenever you take a prize with Guardi, it, like, feels very bad. Like, your Ionos are permanently one less, and like, I don't know, like, isn't the Heroescape really cracked in that matchup? Like, I didn't actually, like, fully put my, like, thumb to it until, like, we started talking about it again, but yeah, I don't know. I want to test that. That actually is, like,

Liam: 26:46

is probably kind of hard to deal with, right? I don't know, maybe, hmm, hmm.

Cam: 26:52

I mean, you do have the out of, like, you can, like, CC if they're out of candies. You can CC To like, devo it, if they're out of

Liam: 27:00

like, you want to push for the board wipe when you can, right?

Cam: 27:03

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Liam: 27:05

I think, I think actually though, like, you could actually just maybe get enough damage. It's like I feel like the reason the Charmeleon is kind of so hard to deal with is because you don't want to go CC Flutter hit Because they just like super on it back, right? But I think if you can just like, you know, CC Flutter, move 60 and now it has like 150 on it That's like a good turn Like

Cam: 27:26

Yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem like you're you're auto losing to Heroescape.

Liam: 27:30

you a little but I feel like the matchup is like You know, at least when you watch Henry cook like, you know, we got room to spare, you know

Cam: 27:38

The other alternative for the Charizard deck is just playing Prime Fetch again, like literally just riffing towards exact EUIC 60, just run it

Liam: 27:44

that actually seems like really good, bro, because We never had access to CC, CC Charmeleon with the Flutter, but CC Charmeleon with the Flutter is like, actually just like, brutal. Because the, the thing doesn't evolve, like you get a Flutter hit on a Charmeleon piece, as to retreat. Maybe the Zari can preload it pretty consistently, but that is

Cam: 28:05

Oh wait, I understand what you're saying now, yes, it is very difficult to prelo to like, to get the You have to hit the Cheren, you have to Cheren, or Boss, right? It's not that hard, you can just Boss

Liam: 28:15

that bad, like you lose the cape, but Turo's not that bad too. But, that's like pretty good for them if you have to hit the Flutter that turn,

Cam: 28:21

Especially if you're using

Liam: 28:22

I guess you could go

Cam: 28:23

their Boss first.

Liam: 28:24

you could go Boss RDX, yeah,

Cam: 28:25

No, no, but you can you can stretch the Boss first with Mimikyu and then go for that play. Potentially.

Liam: 28:30

Yeah, sure, sure.

Cam: 28:33

I think Primecatcher though, like, I do think that, like, I guess like, we played what, like, only, we only got to play three games, and only, in one of them, I got completely cooked because I couldn't Retreat Bib. But, like, not even just based on that, I've been thinking for a while, like, I, like, I want to play, like, Primecatcher in my deck. Like, I like Primecatcher a lot in Zard. It's, like, the mobility, like, I've been, I'm playing Cheren, just so I can switch out of Monkey. Like, I want Primecatcher.

Liam: 28:59

Yeah, dude, I feel like the the stance went good in mid. I think it's also because, like, we're in a format with Fez, so, like, the disruption just feels, like, a lot worse. I also feel like you're, like, racing a lot more often, right? Against, like, Drago and Bolt, you're, like, you're kind of just racing independently, right?

Cam: 29:13

Of the big five, you know what the best stamp deck is, unironically? Bolt. For sure. so, yeah, I was wondering if we were going to talk about that earlier. I didn't know if we wanted to bring it up, because you were talking about, like, the reason that the aggressive decks have been so good in the past is because of Disruption, and we've been playing Unfair Bolt. I didn't know if we wanted to share that. But, yeah,

Liam: 29:35

mean, it's specifically disruption on like, turn one before they do

Cam: 29:40

you have Iono, you have Palpatine, but I'm just saying, it's like, that's what we're talking about. It's literally let loose, right? It's a let loose where it's not on turn one, it's on turn two. card okay. The thing that is so ridiculous about Unfair Stamp is that, like, Reaching Bull just did some heinous thing to you. Like, they just like, took a, like, catch your, like, the exact Pokemon they wanted to kill, knocked you out, they're like five minutes on board, and all you did was like, fight back a little bit. You took, you took one knockout back. And then all of a sudden, they get to like, play an item that draws them, like, Shuffle Draws five, puts you at two, then they catch you like, what you want, or they like, boss, or they catch you and then sawdust, and their board is like, they didn't even like, they didn't pay any cost to put you to two cards. They just like, They could, they, the whole time they were playing how they wanted, and then they just like, happened to Unfair Stamp you on top. Like, everything else, like, kind of, like, when you're playing it in Guardi, right, like, you're like, already, by the time, like, Unfair Stamp's good, like, I don't know, like, most of the time I can just Iona them, it's not that, not that good, like, I'm Ioning them to 4 versus Unfair Stamping them to 5, er, to 2, but like, I don't know, it seems fine, right? Or like, in Zard.

Liam: 30:44

like, really coming from like, all the crazy things you do on board with Guardi, right? As

Cam: 30:48

Yeah, exactly.

Liam: 30:49

the hand, Just, the light reset is fine.

Cam: 30:53

Exactly. Like, the Iona to 4 and then kill the exact the Pokemon you want via, like, Monkey and Devo is, like, is just cracked enough. Like, you don't need Stamp. Stamp's And the thing with this, the reason Stamp is so good and bold, is because it's a race. And it's because it's the most aggressive deck. And like, a lot of other decks, because they're not basic based, like, it hurts them a lot more. Then it would hurt Bolt, right? Because Bolt, we've all felt it, when Bolt gets Unfair Stamp, or Ionid Liking, it just like, draws still 10 cards, because of Pokestop, Greninja, Fezendipity, if you hit the Sadas, you hit Energy for Teal Mask, like, so it doesn't really go good against that deck. It doesn't feel like they're getting lucky. It feels like this is, like, the expected outcome. Like, when you I when you stamp

Liam: 31:41

think you can count on Bolt to get a knockout on whatever they want every single turn of the game. That's like,

Cam: 31:47

So, it's just interesting, like, yeah, that, yeah, it is, he's Bon is right, like, it's just been interesting to see that Unfair Stamp has been best in Bolt, and it's kind of, Maybe it isn't as good in Charizard as we think, and it's time to start trying other stuff while we still have time, because, It just feels so intuitive, like, oh, I'm playing 4 Arven and my Guardian and my Charizard, I should play Unfair Stamp, for sure, right? Cause like, you know, Arven I'm playing anyways for consistency, and now I can, like, Roxanne with it, but it just, like, doesn't feel like that when you play it, like, it just isn't that good.

Liam: 32:18

I think it hit harder like before like, Drago, because I feel like the format was slower.

Cam: 32:24

yeah.

Liam: 32:25

you had like a little bit more time. Like, you weren't like, solitaring as hard, kind of, you know?

Cam: 32:31

Yeah, I guess that's the other thing about Bolt, right? It's the only duck that doesn't have an issue with Drago, so it like, doesn't really have to worry about it like all the other ducks do, and you can just play weird things like Unfair Stamp and Pokemon Catchers and just catch people slipping. Yeah, because Drago is like, the most like, unfair stamp resistant deck. Like, it's, like, if they have their Legacy Star up, it doesn't matter what you do to their head. Like, it's totally fine. Like, they're gonna, they're gonna have the Drago attack. Like, I think people, like, at first were just using Drago, like the, like the V Star, to, like, attack, like, very fast, and, like, try to get, like, a catcher or something. Like, something, like, something very flippant. But like, once like, I don't know, once it became like, more and more apparent that you're just like, chill with, with the, with the Draugr, like, and the V Star, it just, I don't know. I was never

Liam: 33:19

Drago, when they have their V Star, it's just like the scariest thing in the world. It doesn't even matter if they like haven't attacked yet, like the deck is just terrifying cause like, they have access to literally like the best attacks in the game every single turn and like, if you know they're not gonna run out of gas, like there's no way they don't just run you over. You know?

Cam: 33:35

Yeah. Curem like, broke the deck. Curem is actually like, really insane.

Liam: 33:40

Yeah.

Cam: 33:41

I wonder, though, like, I just really want to play, like, Mantine and, like, everything. Like, I just, I'm fiending to, like, bench their Curem. Like, they're all cutting their Tur like, their Turos Turos and, like, Pennies, and, like, I just want to catch that Curem so bad and just CC it over and over again.

Liam: 34:00

Yeah, bro. It's like actually so hard to beat Drago. Yeah. I don't know what to do. It has me completely lost.

Cam: 34:07

I mean, there's always the nuclear option if they don't play Radzard. Like, like, you can just keep adding Mimikyus and Mists until, like, we can't lose. We're just playing Quad Mimikyu. Yeah. Four Mimikyu, four Mists. Rip it.

Liam: 34:19

I don't even know how good that is because like if they hit like an ideal start and they're able to like conserve their resources while hitting like a turn one, turn two attack, like it still feels like you're probably like not amazing, right? Like,

Cam: 34:32

no, no, that's like, you're, no, no, you're, you're chilling. You're gonna

Liam: 34:36

right? You're coping so hard right now. I

Cam: 34:39

depends, if you're playing like Pidget, like, you're, no, you're, I'm not coping, like, you're just gonna win. If you're playing 3 anything less than that and you could lose. Potentially.

Liam: 34:49

yeah, like, what if you're playing Mimikyu, er, Pidget, with three Mimikyu, three Myst, and like, turn one, you go like, Rotom Pidgey, and then they go like, oh, like, Prime catch your Rotom, knock out your Pidgey, and you like, you know, you miss the bravery charm for whatever reason, and now you just lose the game.

Cam: 35:06

I think you might not even be able, you might not even have to play that fast if you're actually playing the inevitability. You might just be able to just go like, I'll just Arvan

Liam: 35:12

Dude, but you have to find the find the Myst energy, bro.

Cam: 35:15

Yeah, yeah, I think you use the Road of Sealstone to find the first one and then like you hope you can get like just enough time to like find the other two like manually. It's not like ideal. You would rather just page out for it, obviously. I'm just saying if your hand's like not good enough, you might have to go slower.

Liam: 35:30

yeah, no, I, I know what you mean, but like, okay. I feel like the fact that they're like, they still have like, routes to win in those games is like, and it's like, like realistic routes to win, it's like, the deck is both like, incredibly fast and has access to like, the strongest attacks. Like, usually decks have to make some sort of, some sort of compensation somewhere, and they have like, a late game engine, or like, you know, a late game ability to just spawn in the cards they need to win. Like, the deck just feels like it has like, literally no weaknesses. I don't,

Cam: 36:05

No pun intended,

Liam: 36:05

I like the, the, practical weakness is like raging bolt, but yeah, like there's no, there's nothing like structurally wrong with the deck at all. Like, it's just, it's like the reliance on items is maybe like the biggest weakness.

Cam: 36:23

the fact that you can cure him away monkey is like the most annoying part. If you couldn't cure a monkey, I think like Guardian would have like, Very real chances despite

Liam: 36:30

Yeah, no, for sure. There's no way you can stop it from taking three prizes, right? Every time they hit the Q arm, it's

Cam: 36:34

yeah, it's just ridiculous.

Liam: 36:36

every time. Mm-Hmm.

Cam: 36:38

dude, the most disgusting consideration that I've like, maybe, like toyed with is just playing two Manaphy. It sucks, it's so gross, but maybe, maybe it's, like, at some point, like, we do, something has to get, like, we do have to beat that matchup, right, somehow. So. I don't know, I hate I hate solutions like that, like, I'm the first one to say that's like a disgusting solution, but like, it feels pretty hopeless if we don't if we don't fix something do something drastic like that,

Liam: 37:07

I think if we're gonna come into that strategy too, we have to re evaluate the cut key, right?

Cam: 37:11

Yeah, we may not be able to play it, still.

Liam: 37:14

mean like maybe, maybe it's fine, but yeah,

Cam: 37:18

The Klefki has like other applications though, like, just having Poffin into Klefki is like, so lit.

Liam: 37:22

you know, you can tell yourself you'll hit the tarot, right? But

Cam: 37:27

Yeah, yeah, of course. Well, no, if you're playing as Draugr, you just don't even bother with the Klefki, but like in every other

Liam: 37:32

could also like opt not to hit the clef key, but you're also like probably throwing it down blind. And that's not huge, but you know, it's a factor.

Cam: 37:41

Sure, but like, it's not like, just because, like, you're playing Double Manaphy, that Klefki becomes any less good. Like, if you do play it down blind, like, often, that does still cripple them, like it did before. And then, you get there. I don't

Liam: 37:53

know, but you know, like, it just means you have to hit the tarot, right?

Cam: 37:58

Yeah, not ideal, not ideal stuff, for sure. I think What do you think is like the most effective method though? Like, do you try to like, stuff Draugr with the Clefki, or do you think like, we just try to win inevitably with like, the two Manaphy? Like, which, like, which one is like, speaking to you, you know? Like, which one's like, really like, jumps out? Because I don't

Liam: 38:16

for the Manaphy more. I feel like yeah, I like playing for the Manaphy a lot more, like I feel like, because I think if you If you can stop the Cheren play, and you hit turn two, or like, the Curlias before they hit their first attack, or like their first Polt you always win, right? So yeah, I like,

Cam: 38:35

And like, at the end of the day, the matchup was hella good in the last format. It was great in the last format. So if we can like, replicate that somehow

Liam: 38:43

just have to stop the Cheren, right, and then, and like, the double Manaphy feels like the most independent way to do it, as opposed to like, oh, I'm gonna stop the Cheren by like, Shoving Klefki and hoping they can't play the game, you know, like which is not bad it really does hit Drago like seriously hard, but You know, I'd like to do it in the the more independent inevitability, right? Yeah,

Cam: 39:10

I was like, what I was gonna get at is like, it sucks with the Klefki, cause like, at some point you're gonna have to play the game, and like, they can sack you after that point. And like, a lot of times, even when I do stuff them a little bit with the Klefki, like, they, they like,

Liam: 39:22

no if their hand is if their hand is good the the Klefki like doesn't matter at all You know Like you have to be like Klefki stopping squat kind of like this or like not exactly that but like You to really prevent them from like, actually playing the game, not just like, turning off the Ogre Pawns, you know?

Cam: 39:39

Yeah. Like, it's not a yeah, exactly. Klefki is not meant to, like it is obviously trying to stop their energy acceleration, but it's like, that that effect is like, not that relevant because you're going so slow with Klefki that it doesn't like, you're gonna lose, like like, they're gonna, like, boss Kirram Manaphy and, like, take or, boss sorry, boss, like, Kirram, like, with Klefki to turn off Manaphy, like, at some point. So, like, you need to, like,

Liam: 40:01

a major board compensation on the race, right? Like, if they're able to play the game, you're like, you're cucked.

Cam: 40:08

If we do play no clefki though, we do have to put the second flutter back in. So at that point, like, maybe we just keep the clefki in. I'm not sure. Like, I want to play two of the ability lock in the active cards minimum, if not three, right? So it's hard. It's hard to, like, fit all these things and, like, figure out

Liam: 40:24

yeah, I'm definitely not gonna just play one Flutter, right? That's

Cam: 40:28

Sounds bad. Sounds terrible. I'm just accepting bundle. You know, actually, speaking of which, I think in one of our meetings earlier, Shinoi, we did talk about, like, Lostbox being kind of dead, but actually thought about it more, and I was kind of seeing, like, Cameron Kawasaki's point more, and it was like, How can Lostbox really be that dead? Like, the worst case scenario, like, you could just jam, like, three to four Cologne in there, like, how, how dead can this deck be? Like, it was like, it won NAIC, nothing really, like, cooked it,

Liam: 40:58

what I'm most confused about is how on earth do you beat Draco? Like,

Cam: 41:03

Like, you're playing, you want to play four Cologne in a deck that, like, played four of everything else to be super consistent, and like, you're cutting, like, that's when you're like, okay, I'll cut. And it doesn't really matter, like, oh, maybe I'll cut a Super Rod, I'll cut a Pokestop, and it just like, hurts your consistency, and you're going to play a card that's literally only good against what, Gardevoir? I mean, like, you still have the, the, the guardi out. You hit them with the thorns, and you just hope. Pure hope. That's bad, it sounds bad. I, I understand. I, is there, like, an efficient way to kill the baby Draugr? Like, maybe you can, like, out turbo them? Like, you hit them with the Roaring Moon? That, that does, that also sounds kinda bad. I'm not gonna, like, not gonna front, but. I guess like, yeah, I guess your main out is Thorns.

Liam: 41:53

And dude, also, like, they get to like, prime Cologne, raw Kiramu. Like,

Cam: 41:58

They're not doing that. I don't think that's correct to do that.

Liam: 42:02

you don't think so?

Cam: 42:04

No, because let's say you do go for that play, and then they just Pal Pad, and they like, the Curem's active, and they just like, sableye iota or something. I don't know. I'm not sure if you're supposed to do that.

Liam: 42:14

I don't know, dude. I,

Cam: 42:15

You can Regidrago and get the Curem back later if you want. Like, you can do that later.

Liam: 42:20

the thing is, like, that play could, like, honestly, like, feasibly happen on, like, turn two, turn three, and they hold the V Star.

Cam: 42:29

Yeah, because you could just like, not do it the other could just use Why not discard the Curem and hold the You could just use, like, Dragapult early, right?

Liam: 42:35

It's because you only lose one energy. Like, you get to do that play and have, like, a fully loaded V Star. Drago on the bench.

Cam: 42:41

no, I understand that. I understand the concept. I'm just saying that like, I don't know. I think it's like, I think it's like so winning if you get to play the game. So like, there's like, you're kind of splitting hairs how you want to go about winning. Like, you can just play Drago and Dragapult them and then Curem at some point and win as well.

Liam: 42:57

yeah, I agree with that. Like, the Drago pull, like, you don't have a good way through the Drago as LZB, right?

Cam: 43:02

Yeah, exactly. So like, LGB literally has to rip the Thorns and just pray. And like that's their out Not a great out. Not a great out. Sure. I was more thinking in the context of just like, how can a deck that like, that's so good at NAIC, like fall off, like without any like real new cards. But I guess like meta shift, like decks are only as strong as the meta, right? mean, and I guess the meta has just shifted. the meta's just shifted, but isn't that also, like the whole point of, like, when Pokemon releases a card that just flat out counters you? think em's, like countering lost box is just overstated. Like lost box was already playing menifee anyways, like. Who's playing Curum outside of Draugr? Genuinely. That card is terrible outside of Draugr.

Liam: 43:48

Yeah, no, I

Cam: 43:49

And the issue is, like, it's in the best deck, right? And I think that's the real Yeah, that happens to be the It's like, this card that counters you just happens to be in the best deck. And, like, something that's actually kind of funny is I mean, Probably never happens, you could actually just like, play Curem against them, and so you don't like, dump 3 energy on them. Yeah, we were talking about that. I don't know if that's correct or not. I think, like, it's awkward to commit to it being on your board. Like, they can Palpat the Chorus and then you've already, like, cooked. I don't know.

Liam: 44:20

I think, like, that thing on board, like, This like pow pow to all your chorus back play, I think maybe happens sometimes and then you find a switch and you're fine. Like,

Cam: 44:31

Sure, sure. You're not but you don't get to use Curem anymore. Like, you might be able to still win with Dragapult. Okay. Like, regardless, I think if they start attacking with Dragapult er, with Regidrago, they win. So like, how you want to go about doing that is like, kind of irrelevant, I think.

Liam: 44:46

sure, sure, I mean, I don't know, like, theoretically, you should, if you're playing Lost Box, you should have some way to win if they attack with the Drago. Like,

Cam: 44:55

Like,

Liam: 44:55

I mean, if you don't, sure, I get your point, but like

Cam: 44:58

But like, what is the answer? Like, what what what card are you thinking about right now? Like, it unironically is on the tier of like, Mew EX and your own like, Tina V Star. Like, that's like, how cooked it is, trying to kill Drago.

Liam: 45:08

Now, yeah, I think you just have to play a bunch of Gusts and try to hit the Ogre Pawns or something, like,

Cam: 45:14

And bear, bear spam.

Liam: 45:16

yeah.

Cam: 45:17

That's so bad.

Liam: 45:18

I mean, it's cooked, it's cooked, it has no weakness, it's 280 no weakness! It's

Cam: 45:22

Faerie for the game might have been a mistake, Pokemon. What

Liam: 45:26

Yeah.

Cam: 45:26

Yes, Fairy. This Klefki that we play, what if it was Fairy type but it had an attack that did like 140? Imagine. the heck? No bro, I don't know bro, I just need a way to kill Draugr. It's actually, it's actually like so frustrating that like, unless I'm playing Raging Bolt, I don't get to one shot this thing. Like, What, what is

Liam: 45:44

Yeah, no, exactly, the deck is like, it's like, It has literally no weakness. The

Cam: 45:49

the video games, the only way to kill it is Draco Meteor with another Dragon type.

Liam: 45:53

Yeah. Yeah. XP

Cam: 45:59

Like, maybe there's maybe Dragon types, there's Fairy, right? Like, I guess that's like Dazzling Gleam, like that's No, but back in the day, it used to be either Ice or Dragon. Oh yeah, yeah, Ice. That's what I was missing. I knew it wasn't just only Dragon on Dragon, but I knew and like, their fairy is like a newer thing, right? So, I was confused. I'll speak to you in a second. The T the HP Ice, that that was lit back in the day. The, the other fast, aggressive, big basic deck is Moridon, is that, that doesn't have the same matchup into Dragon, right? Just because it doesn't have uncapped damage. I'd assume not. I'm sure that with Bundle, and like A good start, you can cook Drago in similar ways, or like, even as simple as like if you're playing like Primecatcher or Catchers or whatever, like you can get lucky, right? You can always hit like the, the Generator onto Moridon, like, Rescue Board the active, Catcher, kill their Drago, the dragon's not playing Vacuum, right? So you could play, like, Baton on, well, I mean, nevermind, that would be on a hands, which wouldn't work. You could play Experience Cheren just so you could keep bossing, though, so you don't have to you know, Arven for your, Arven for your generators. how xp share works. Does xp share work if they hit you for 200, put 60 on the bench, and then CC, and like, kill your thing on the bench with with the damage of a Give me one second, I'm gonna walk over to the cards in Tabletop Village and read it. Heh, okay. I thought he was just it says when you're active it's knocked out by damage from an attack, so unfortunately not. It, like, it's like, on three fronts. It's not you're active, it's not damage from an attack, it's cooked, Yeah, nevermind, nevermind, sorry, sorry, sorry for the bad idea guys. Nah, man, I regularly gotta read the cards, like I didn't know about Legacy Energy, not proccing, but in my defense, I didn't go to NAIC, so like, I didn't have to know. But I didn't know I didn't proc until until recently, at a cup, found out the nice way, I, didn't I tell you? I was like, that's terrible, yeah, or maybe it wasn't a cup, maybe it was a local. It was a local, yeah, yeah, you're the one who told me it was a local, because you don't go to cups. You refuse. You refuse. Or if I do, I'm pretty shit at them. I'm gone by round three. I mean, to be fair, Shadow Rider, like, that's not your fault. You played me round one, that was already a loss, like, no worries, happens. this guy acts like it was not down to a confusion coin flip, and I flip tail, and he goes, Oh, and then he even realizes, like, you know what, that's actually kind of egregious. I probably shouldn't have done that, because I easily lose a few flip heads. That was crazy, bro. no. But like, look, you're correct. If you did flip heads, you would win. But like, the reason I went for Confusion in the first place is cause like, you're not even supposed to opt into that, you know, and when you do opt into it, you're gonna flip tails, you know? That's like, Nah, but you know, at some point, I had to flip. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course, that's like the point, right? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm not I'm not Hedrick. I don't, I don't flip I don't win 10, 000. Dollar coin flips. I lose, I lose local coin flips. But I guess that's like, is that something that has not come up as, as Gardevoir? Has Monkey Dory not really done anything? Is it just because they can like, Primecatcher around it? Because you do Tidalga, right? And it has three retreats, so it kind of

Liam: 49:16

yeah, bro, the monkey comes up in every, everywhere, every matchup. It

Cam: 49:20

No, I know, but is it like, from Drago, has it, it still felt bad for you guys? It was like Monkey Dory or Confucian just not doing enough? Or like buying you that turn that you, you need?

Liam: 49:33

I'd say it would probably be good if they didn't play the Switch, but they all, they should, and I think most of them do, play the one raw Switch, and that's like, that's like just enough volume to get there, you know?

Cam: 49:44

Yeah, because one Yeah, because before Switch They have so many issues. Without the switch, they can get monkeyed. When they cure them, they're very vulnerable. When they, like, even when they use like, if they ever try to, like, if they play Raging Bull still, if they try to Raging Bull your guardi, they're super vulnerable. But the switch just fixes everything. Like, the switch makes it so, like, none of these vulnerabilities are real anymore. And you're like, oh well. Aye aye. My bad. You have to switch into And because the deck is powerful enough that, like, it just needs one switch in, like, claps you up with either Kira or Dragapult, and just keeps on, Yeah I mean, that's like an oversimplified way, but it's more like Shinoi, the more bigger issue is that they have Prime Catchering and getting out of it most of the time anyways, and the Switch is like the last Yeah. Yeah, and they can always, and they can just get the, Drago, Prime Catcher They can get them back if they really need to, right? So it's like, technically four if they really play it smart. Or it happened to Hyrule, right? So it's like, Dory doesn't do enough.

Liam: 50:40

Yeah.

Cam: 50:41

Yeah. It just feels like you're right there. You feel like you're right there against Drago. Like, even when they QM you. But, they just get there, with the hard switch and stuff. They just like I, I, like, I've been winning less and less games when they Kirin me, once I started playing the Switch, like, doesn't feel good anymore. Like, before I was like, dude, they Kirin me, no big deal, their deck sucks. But, no, now now they get me.

Liam: 51:03

Mhm, yeah, Drago goes crazy. Yeah,

Cam: 51:10

Man, I think Draugr's gonna be the most played deck at Worlds, unfortunately. It's just, like, very, very annoying. It doesn't,

Liam: 51:17

bro, I think we should really bring a good strategy for that. I I'm definitely not playing Raging Bolt, no matter how good the strategy is. I'm finding something else, higher

Cam: 51:26

so I think, if we're assuming that Drago, is going to be the best, is the best deck, and the most played deck, and obvious counter to it is Bolt. And you probably also want to win the mirror. I feel like the teched version of Drago is potentially better placed, right? Like, with Gudra, you potentially win the I don't think it beats Bolt. I just, I don't think the text doesn't matter. I played think Bolt's still cooked. Like, they just bundle it, bundle it, right? I was playing, I, I mean, I played a best of three against one of the kids I coach, and like, I, I know the matchup's good, I ended up losing one too just because there were like, I was just like, oh, I just need Bundle here, and then for some reason I just, like, missed it, and then they were like, Neuvern, Indigoudre, Neuvern, Indigoudre, and it, it kinda sucked. Just because I kept coming so I'm not gonna say that you never lose, Yeah, yeah, it's just like, but, like, if it buys you some games against Bull and helps you in the mirror, because you're playing Goudra, right, which I don't think a more consistent build is, like, that beats you, wins you the mirror, right, like, are we just saying, like, that's just the better build because you beat the two most important decks in the room? mean, yeah, if I was playing Drago, that's like the first build I'm looking at, is the Goudra. Like, I'm, I'm, I need to beat the mirror. You're, you're completely correct. I refuse to be losing the mirror. Like, that is, that's crazy. Like, I'm planning to play the most deck, the most popular deck, because it's the best, and I'm gonna just, like, 50 50 the mirror. Or, like, I mean, not even 50 50, because every other person in the room has their own mirror sauce. Like, I'm not gonna be playing, like, the stock list and just, like, be, like, the, the side character who just gets, like, like, in their tournament report, like, Oh, I beat a Drago mirror. I used my attack. And like, I'm like, I'm like playing the Stalkless. That's terrible. You're, yeah, if I, the first thing I'm testing is the Gujra. That's, that's what I'm getting at.

Liam: 53:24

This side character is so funny. But that's true. I don't know if Gujra is like, the mirror attack. Like,

Cam: 53:31

is like, X, Y, Z. Like, Gujra doesn't matter. Like, the point is like, the vi I'm not playing, I'm playing a tech. I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna figure out the best tech and play it, right?

Liam: 53:39

Yeah, I agree with that. Well, I don't know actually. I think, I think running the best version. deck is also a fine tech. Of

Cam: 53:48

heh. I

Liam: 53:50

right.

Cam: 53:51

build? Because it won't end up being 100 percent Regidrago, it'll end up being like 15 percent Regidrago.

Liam: 53:59

yeah, like, and yeah, I mean, it just, just building the deck really well and is an advantage that, that's like a real mirror advantage. I love that advantage. It's a, it's a general advantage. It's

Cam: 54:12

mean, that was my, my advantage to Urshe. I just built the deck good. And then I win. Cause it works. My deck works, and yours doesn't.

Liam: 54:20

yeah, just build the deck. Well, that's the that's the ultimate goal, like.

Cam: 54:24

I think when you're playing a deck, though, that literally says, copy a Dragon Pokemon's attack from the discard, I'm sure you can find something creative that's, like, very good. That's, like, a 1 up slot that's, like, cracked. No? Like, yeah, if I'm playing Charizard, maybe I maybe the tech is no tech, cause, like, Charizard just works. Like, I just do the Charizard thing, and I'll win. But, I think if you're playing a deck that's, like, so inherently built to be a box deck, you may as well just, like, at least explore the box aspects. Yeah,

Liam: 54:57

board with the bib. It just also managed to collat, like, the entire meta, right? So yeah, like, having some idea other than the deck just doing its thing is like, there's obviously value in that too, right?

Cam: 55:13

yeah, of course. I don't know, is there anything else we have left to address? We've been going for an hour now. I think we covered most things that we wanted to get to.

Liam: 55:21

I don't know. I think. Was there anything else like super interesting that happened yesterday in y'all's testing?

Cam: 55:28

so we think Polt's just bad. I don't think there was a takeaway there. I think we just thought that Polt was not quite good enough. Now, while Dialga is probably like that it is the kind of deck where you were, When you lose, you're just like, man, I just like, I needed one more energy. Off the Matang, and then you like flip over the top card, and it's a medal. And you're just like, and sometimes you're just like that close to winning. And, and so it's either like like yesterday, it just felt like there were so many games where it was like a medal off, and then I'm currently playing three boss and no gears. And I think after yesterday, it was like, that was the other thing, like, go up to four boss, maybe try to put some gears in, or the other thought was to put it in a bundle. Because like, the amount of times That you, I was like, man, if I could just like, bundle here, and Kronos, like, the little thing, that's like, cause they only have little things on their bench, and like, they're, they're Regidrago V Stars in the active, right, or, they're Charizards in the active, but they don't have anything on the bench, you're just like, man, like, it would be so much better here, like, this, this would actually go crazy, cause I could just go like, bundle out, I have the knockout, Kronos, and then like, boss, The Charizard, and next turn, like, as long as I hit, like, one or two metals, like, I just one shot it, right? So, it was, like, very close, and I think you just have to commit to The best tech for that deck might just be, like, committing to as much gust as possible.

Liam: 57:05

Yeah, I agree. When I was playing it, I really, like, I felt like if you were drawing the gusts at the right time, you, you were, you were usually winning, right? And so, yeah, I think, I think more gusts make sense, and like, the volume of the gusts actually is important too, right? Like, it's very easy to, like, research one boss and then want to use, like, three others, right?

Cam: 57:25

mm hmm.

Liam: 57:27

so yeah, I, I think that makes sense to me.

Cam: 57:29

And so there's that, and then, it was this, and so I think that's actually pretty good. The stadium is, like, pretty solid. Lugia, we, we thought Shaman EX, I mean, I'm sure we'll end up trying it. I don't know if that actually fixes it. But then I guess the other items to look at were I think next week we're, or this next session we're gonna be testing, like, Meridon, Quadthorns, and like, maybe one other deck, so it's like, goes to the electric decks and see if any of them can hang. And I, I, in theory Quadthorns seems really good. Now, I know a lot of people think I cope with Quadthorns, like, I'll be the first to say or I, because I've just been playing Thorns in general a lot, the thing about Quadthorns is, like, sometimes you just mulligan, like, six times and just give your opponent a good hand, which definitely does suck, and so they, like, Well, the matchups are good. There are times where you actually just lose because you gave your hand, your opponent, a cracked hand, or you're like, you have a poor start, and they can actually just get through at least one Thorns, and they just, like, donk you because you didn't hit the second Thorns. So there's that, but I do think, like, in theory, it does very, very well into the meta. In, in practice we'll have to see.

Liam: 58:45

are, are you opting second with Thorns to try and solve that issue? Right, so you can turn one supporter, like Ion Overjudge or

Cam: 58:51

Yeah, because, yeah, because, like, if you hit the Arvin, you can also turbo energize, which really helps. And then, I'm, I don't think it was in Ross Cawthon's list, I don't know how many, if it was in, like, anybody else's list. I guess since we're just being very open here, like, I'll just share what I've been trying. Like, I've been playing Giovanni's Charisma, so you can also just, like, high roll into, and it requires your opponent to attach an energy to the active, which, I don't know,

Liam: 59:19

Yeah, but then you can turn one

Cam: 59:20

But like a lot of like Regidrago and and Braging Bolt will actually do that for you a lot of the times right because they want to burst or like get the right so there's like some decks where they'll actually do that for you so you can either turbo energize or potentially just attack right

Liam: 59:37

No, yeah, it's, it's definitely on them to, like, their, their plays should not be, like, respecting the Giovannis at all, right? Like,

Cam: 59:43

I think most of us weren't playing it but yeah

Liam: 59:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Cam: 59:49

so I guess like it moves to the electric decks to see and then maybe we I don't know what the I think we're gonna try a third deck I forget which one it is now I guess we'll just see how How those end up doing, or if the big five just continue to, like, roll everything.

Liam: 1:00:07

Yeah. I'd suggest somebody, somebody plays my, my Pitch LX deck. Actually, no, never mind. Wait, wait until I have something for Drago, and then we'll, we'll talk.

Cam: 1:00:19

What's the Wait till the Regidrago matchup's real?

Liam: 1:00:24

Yeah, yeah. But other than that, I think yeah, like Snorlax is pretty good, except for the the Drago matchup.

Cam: 1:00:30

Yeah, is that the So that's, like, one deck we haven't talked about a lot. So you don't think it beats Drago, ever? There's nothing you can do? I know you guys have quite a lot of control, different I know it's mainly been Pidgeot, but

Liam: 1:00:42

have too many options. They have all the best attackers in the game. They have Cologne, they have multiple switches, and they have a way to recycle all the resources in their deck. It's like, it's pretty hard to beat. And they're super aggressive, too. Like, I mean, it is just like a brutal combination. Like, you know, controlled decks in general are like generally The strongest at, like, exploiting, like, structural weaknesses, right? Like, you know, like Lugia only relying on special energy. Like, you know, the evil tall thing or whatever is, like, the way you exploit that, right? But so, like, you know, picking apart, like, BDIFs is something that, like, you know you usually have to go to these, like, heavy anti meta options for. And those are, like, typically found in Controlled X because, you know, You know in order to make bad options work, you have to, you have to extend the game. But yeah, like, Drago has, like, no, no weaknesses to pick at. There's, like, there's nothing, nothing really to target. It's you kind of just have to hope that they, like, brew, you know, mismanage their resources somehow. Like, that's, the only thing is their resources are finite, I guess. But like, that's they have enough, right? Alright, that's I think that makes for a good podcast episode. We will see you all next week with John Paul's Hour Outro.