Liam: 0:05

Welcome to the Trash on Anch podcast. Attendance is 100%. It's me, Liam Halliburton, Man Ahmed, and Cameron Shannoy. Yeah, different 100 percent than in the past, but 100 percent nonetheless, there's three of us. We are sponsored by Dragon Shield. They have really good sleeves, in my opinion. I always use Dragon Shields, because they send me stuff. Dragon

Abaan: 0:27

Shields is the only sleeves I've never gotten penalties with. I've gotten game loss with any other type of sleeve. I got a game loss with Eclipses back in, like, 2019. Got a game loss with Katanas at Orlando. A top 8 Dragon Shields, no penalties, bro. You've heard it here.

Liam: 0:42

Yeah, I don't get sleep penalties either. It's also because I'm nice to my cards. I've said this, like, multiple times, but, like, yeah, I mean, you're just, you're just asking for it at that point, but, yeah, I see the way some players, like, play their cards, they just, like, you know, every time they play it, that, like, bottom right corner basically goes, like, perpendicular to the table, and then, like, you know, the card's bent, and they're like, dude, why'd I get a prize penalty, even though, like, you put the card out, and you can see it's, like, The top card of the deck. I actually had, I had a friend Noah Yoshida, he was in Day 2, and he literally said that happened to him, where he was like, he got Iono to 1, and he sees the top card, and it's like, bending like a Pringle, and he's like, no, bro, cause he needed like, Sada to win. And like, he's just, you know, like, you know, that happens to your cards when you treat them like that, bro.

Abaan: 1:33

I think the prize pack cards have something wrong with them, cause I like, I love using the prize pack cards, and like, I don't want to say that, like, it's marked or whatever, but I can lowkey I get the feeling, too, when I, like, I'm about to draw either one of my energies or, like, a prize pack card. All my cards are bent, but, like, those got, like, that extra little, like, zing to it. No, I,

Liam: 1:52

I think it, I think it's somewhat inevitable, especially for, like, these, like, foil cards. Like, they just, they just bend more. I think it's really One thing that I'd really love to see from Pokémon is, like, non foil cards for every card. Like so yeah, you, like, you're basically just like, if you're playing a competitive deck, like, forced to play, like, half foil cards, half non foil. And, like, they, you know, that means, like, half your cards bend at, like, a much higher rate than the rest, and that's, like, terrible. That's just terrible. So I had, like, the same thing happen to me this weekend. I was playing Lugia, there's a ton of foil cards, like Luminions, Lugias themselves the hands, like, I leaned on the basic attackers, and I literally bought all of those cards, like, Tuesday before, and, like, you know, they're all just, like, pretty warped. Like, literally, when I bought them. And, like, there's nothing to do about that.

Cameron: 2:46

Yeah, I played Minrarity this weekend, outside, and then, obviously, the only things that are not Minrarity are the Pokémon. And so you can kinda like Well, they are

Abaan: 2:55

Minrarity, they just aren't, like,

Cameron: 2:56

Yeah, they're Like, the only non holos, cause even the supporters I use, like, the researchers I use non holo researchers, so you can kinda like, load things out when you're gonna, you're gonna rip a Pokémon. You're like, oh. Yeah, no, exactly. This is, I think this is a Pokémon right here.

Abaan: 3:09

I try not to, even if I can tell. I just try to, like, ignore it in my brain. Like, I try to cancel out the signal. Yeah, for sure.

Liam: 3:14

But, and I think, I think the best way to do it is to use, like, exclusively MinRarity or something. Like, I know some players, like, they're like, You know, this like, one off supporter, I'm gonna make like, full art or whatever. Then you're talking about

Abaan: 3:28

me. You're talking exactly about me. Yeah, I

Liam: 3:29

know, and like, it's not the worst thing in the world, because you will, like, naturally be playing a ton of other foil cards that like, doesn't always affect every game, but I think, if you're trying to be like, objective the best thing to do is just go min rarity for everything, and like, that's like the system, so it's not like, You don't, like, pick and choose the cards that are foil.

Abaan: 3:45

The problem is, I'm farming, like, our, like, locals, and, like, they pay you at store credit, right? It's, like, what am I Yeah, so you just have to get the

Liam: 3:51

You have to get the foil cards, yes, sir! Of

Abaan: 3:53

course, bro. But, yeah, do we want to talk about Cam's NAIC run? Mr. Top 32? We were just talking about it before the show.

Liam: 4:02

Dude, I When I get store credit at the locals, though, bro, I get You probably get a lot more store credit than me, I don't go to locals a ton, but yeah, I just basically wait for like the set release, and then I buy all the cards I need for set, and that's like, that basically just burns through everything.

Abaan: 4:15

I get hundreds, bro, hundreds, I buy packs of sleeves.

Cameron: 4:17

Yeah, okay, nah yeah, you're like that. But I know how to, I know how to easily get that money back from a bond, I just, I just put them back behind the counter for a second, let them, just a little Then his store credit's gone.

Abaan: 4:28

Dude, it's crazy what Shannoy does. I'm like, Shannoy, this is a list of stuff I need. And he goes, yeah, just go find it, like, back there. And I, like, start looking around. I was like, I could pick up Like, I do need a place at a Monkey Dory. I do need a place Oh my god, it's the impulse purchases,

Liam: 4:40

bro. I bought all

Abaan: 4:41

the ace perks randomly. Like, I didn't even mean to.

Liam: 4:45

You didn't mean to, bro. No, yeah, dude, my store I have all the stuff I just bought,

Abaan: 4:49

like, right in front of me. Look, the whole place is that.

Liam: 4:52

Top salesman, bro. Yeah, my My local game store, they just lay everything out, basically, like, at least all the stuff that's like, not foil, so it's like, the less expensive cards, kind of. That's where like, that's a good chunk of the cards I buy. Yeah, that's definitely where the impulse purchases happen.

Abaan: 5:11

I mean, it's not a bad thing, like I mean, it's not like, cards do lose value, obviously, but like, I don't know, like, as long as you're not buying them at the peak price, like, right when the set drops, it's not the worst purchase in the world, like,

Liam: 5:23

No, yeah, and I mean like, the like, the impulse purchases I buy is like, I see a card and I'm like, oh, this card's like, actually competitive, I should own it, and like, it's, you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to own one of those, right? When they're competitive. But on to, on to bigger things. NAIC was this weekend. I suppose the only thing to do is recap, because Worlds is in, like, two months.

Abaan: 5:48

Yeah, we can just recap NAIC, like, one round at a time, every week, and we'll be ready.

Liam: 5:56

Alright, Cam let's start with you.

Cameron: 5:59

Alright, so I played Futurebox.

Abaan: 6:03

Okay. Did I cut out? Hello? Oh. Shannoy died. Oh, can you hear me? You just died. You said it, you played Future Box and it was complete silence. Yeah.

Cameron: 6:15

Oh, whoops. Oh, well I played Future Box. Sorry. I don't know what happened there. I played Future Box with the Heavy Future Thorns package. The, you know, just'cause I'm a hater. I love Ability Lock and the Future Box version seemed a lot better than just quad thorns. It, it just seemed like it had like other. Other things going for it, with the hands and, I mean, obviously Futurebox was a good deck before Ironthorns came around. Eh. It kind of just rolled through Lugia if they played Fluttermane, it was kind of close, but still winnable, so I felt like even if people were playing the Fluttermane, which none of the Lugias I played were playing Fluttermane including Liam's brother, Walker, who I did a little So, Quick 2 0 clap on like, it just beats Lugia outright, it does pretty well into Tealmast, especially if you're able to get into Thorns early, or just start it, which you have three Gardi is a bit sus, it can be a bit sus Turbo lost box is definitely sus but I only hit one of those, and then you know, you kind of, like, were, Take care. Close in other matchups, like I think your Tarzard matchup got a lot better, since you can just kind of shove a Thorns in the active. It's pretty hard for Tarzard Pidgeot to kind of find what they need when they lose their entire engine to Pidgeot. So my three losses. We on one was on day one. I finished day 1, 7 1, 1. I played three luas. Beat those. I played two teal mask. I actually tied one, which was surprising. And I beat the other one. I lost to the turbo. That matchup is bad just because you don't really have a good way to answer bear. We kind of messed with some things like Crisis Punch, maybe, as an out to Bear. We ended up cutting it because it was better in theory than in practice. So we just took the bad matchup. The guy that I played actually was even worse for me because he had Canceling Clone. So he was just like, I'll just turn off your thorns and clap it with Bear. I was like, oh, that's cool. And then yeah, so I finished day one, 7 1 1. And then day two, hit Alex Jermanski round. 10 or round 1 of day 2. He was playing a weird Lugia list, but no Fluttermane, so I beat him 2 0. Then I played Stephan Tabacco on Gardevoir. That matchup came down to me whiffing a Generator with 3 energy and a 15 card deck. If I hit it I won because I had Primecatcher in hand. You know, that's the deck sometimes, right? That's just electric, you know, sometimes you whiff, and you just live with it. But that was a 35 minute Game 1, so I already knew that we weren't finishing Game 2, and we did not. Game, then round after that I played against a Dragapult player that kind of egregiously threw. So Game 1, I kind of got smacked, I couldn't deal with the legacy energy drag apul with a, with a defiant spell. Obviously, like that's just how they eat through all your attackers, right?

Abaan: 9:15

Wait, legacy energy or do you mean Neo Upper?

Cameron: 9:18

Oh, sorry, yeah. Neo Upper. Oh, okay. Neo. Yeah. My bad. No, you're good. And so I just couldn't deal with that, right, once it got going. And in game two, I started a brick hand, but I started Thorns, and I just attached to Thorn three times, and he couldn't do anything about it. So, because apparently he prized his Bidoof, and he was just sitting there and he had the Pidgeot in hand, but couldn't use it, and obviously didn't want to put it down, because I could just boss take it out. So, I won with him, like, four turns, or five turns, just by, like, attach, attach, attach, attack, attack, attack, and he's just like, oh, I'll just scoop cause his hand was broken. And in game three, it was kind of bad. He used, I first used Mariadon and charged up a Mariadon, because I had nothing else charged, and I was like, oh, great, this game's over. And then, I finally get a hands going, and then he goes Pidgeot, looking to get the Dragapult card, and then he like, shows me Dragapult, that's what he grabs off Pidgeot, he shuffles his deck, looks at his hand, and he's like, Oh my gosh, and so I'm like, Oh, he grabbed the Dragapult, and he actually meant to grab Rare Candy, and now he has just double Dragapult in hand. Which is what he said happened, and then next turn, he grabs the rare candy, and doesn't knock out my iron hand, and then counter catches the crown on my bench, and I was like, okay, cool, bundle, pop, there's nothing on Your bench that can survive this hands. So, I kind of got away with, like, with that matchup, just because he double misplayed those two turns, unfortunately for him. And then I played against Natalie Millar she obviously beat me, I bricked game one, and then game two, I hit hands turn one, and just amped her twice in a row, and then she even said after the match, she kind of hit the nuts, was able to deal with my hands. And then, I think she unfair stamped me. I, like, completely stalled out because my hand was double electric nest ball. So she beat me there, and obviously she went out to win Top 8. Alright, to make Top 8, and then I played at Teomask, where just Game 3, I started the Thorns and just went Double Thorns, and they, they couldn't really do much before I took the two prize lead, and then, we kinda traded knockouts a bit, but, obviously I took the first two prize knockout, so I won that, and then, I played against a control player, who he sat down and said that he had played against two of my buddies from Tabletop Village. And he made a comment somewhat like that, so I knew immediately, based off of my having conversations with you know, some of the people from Seattle, I knew he was playing Block Wax. And I just said, I'm not playing what my other friends are playing, if you want an ID, you can. And he decided to take the ID, and because I had the highest resistance in the room, at 75%, I think a lot of that is to do with Natalie going 6 0 in Day 2 you know, I was able to squeak into Top 32. Was kinda, like, close, I think, the matchup against Stéphane Tabacco, where I whiffed the generator, like, obviously, like, the matchups are completely different, like, anything can happen after that, but I think that was, like, The big matchup where I thought I would, I think I would have felt a lot better if I was 9 1 1 headed, yeah, 9 1 1 is like pretty good, right, like, I mean, you still need to win a couple, but you won your first two, I was already 7 1 1 you win your first two,

Liam: 12:39

you just gotta go like 3 2, it's pretty doable, yeah, yeah.

Cameron: 12:43

So, that was kind of the match where I felt it, and I was just like, that feels like the turning point match for me, like, I can maybe, you know, salvage it a little bit, obviously the loss to Natalie hurt a bit, but I was able to salvage a top 32 after that, so yeah, I think the deck was a solid choice, I mean, I, you know, maybe it wasn't, maybe I could have done better if there was more Lugia, In the room, I think it just ended up being more Guardian, Lost Box, than what my deck could handle, so probably wasn't the exact meta I was looking for, especially kind of near the top. And especially since there's only like, I think there's only four Lugias in the top 64, so, it really was like Lugia's tournament day one, but kind of was not day two.

Liam: 13:34

Now, yeah, I mean, the top 8 composition was obviously completely dominated by Lostbox and Guardi. Guardi, I think, I knew it going in as well. Like we said last week, it was a very, very important deck to beat. A lot of strong players on it, even stronger than I thought. I had not expected the Azul group would be on Guardi, and apparently, they weren't even planning to run Guardi. This was like a last second thing Azul had been basically playing Guardi all day against them, as they were like testing other decks, like it wasn't even, they weren't even considering Guardi as a deck, they were just playing it to test, and then at like, 7pm, Thursday night, Azul was like, yo, I've been playing Guardi all day, this deck actually feels pretty good. And switched over. I

Abaan: 14:24

mean, yeah, it's one of those classic things, right? Like, I felt the same way about Vax. Oh, really?

Cameron: 14:29

Can

Abaan: 14:33

you hear me now? Hello?

Cameron: 14:34

Yeah,

Liam: 14:35

I can hear you. Oh, nevermind, not anymore.

Cameron: 14:39

Yeah, Garti. I think it was not entirely surprising that Garti did well. I mean, like, we have talked about this in the past, right? You were saying, like, the limitless results. The Limitless results were very important in the lead up to the ICT events. I remember, I know I wasn't on the last two episodes, but we had talked a bit about that. And that's what was doing well in the Limitless events. Like, obviously, Raging Bolt did well, I think, at, like, one of the first late nights or something like that. And then Guardi seemed to dominate soon after, I think, obviously, because it takes a good Raging Bolt. It has a playable match against Lugia, right? The hammer is pretty good. They play, and it's easy for them to find it with Arvin and then, obviously, it seemed like a lot of turbo, it wasn't just one group, it seemed like a lot of people kind of figured out that, like, you can throw thorns in Lost Box, in Turbo Lost Box, and just have another electric attacker, and you kind of shut off Lugia so, you know.

Abaan: 15:37

Wait can you guys hear me?

Cameron: 15:39

Yes.

Abaan: 15:40

Okay, I was gonna say, like, what do you guys think the next steps forward are for this Thorns meta? I think Lugia is still, like, cracked. I think that just, Lugia needs to address Thorns better. Can

Cameron: 15:49

you hear me? Oh, okay. Maybe it's just me.

Abaan: 15:54

Oh, okay. Oh, that's gonna be awkward then, though. It's like the last time. Or the two weeks ago. Just guess what I'm saying, bro. I don't know. Anyways, what I was gonna say was, I think Lugia is still, like, one of the best decks. It just didn't show up. Prepared for Guardian Lost Box appropriately, and like, I think going forward it just means like, the lists are gonna have to look a lot more like Alex Shemansky's list. With like, the bundle, and the raw lightning energies, which I think is really interesting. I thought like, before Legacy Energy even came out, people were playing just, just lightning energies and trying to like, vessel and use Iron Hands, right? And I thought that was terrible, but I think now that you have Legacy Energy, so that if you miss it, you can use Legacy Energy, but then, like, you can use Lightning Energy to, like, follow up, or, like, use to Arm Press, too, like, I think that Lugia, like, with the Lightning Energies, and with, like, a Fluttermate, or, like, any kind of way to deal with Iron Thorns, is just gonna be, like, one of the best decks, I guess.

Liam: 16:48

I actually, I'm not completely sure of that. I think, I think I had overestimated the Guardi matchup. Because I hadn't, I'd been testing it myself and I'm not a strong Guardi player. Yeah, bro. It's like actually so cooked, but yeah, I, I think that Guardi matchup might be might actually be just like unfavored for Lugia. Basically no matter how many hands you get. Yeah, like, maybe if you basically just play it like Shemansky's list, right? Yeah, like complete Guardi killer, like double hands, basic Lightning, Drapion. You can beat it, but I mean I think it's not just you can beat it at that point. That list, I

Abaan: 17:30

think it's inconsistent maybe, but like, that list is the Guardi killer. It's not even like, oh, you can beat it now, it's like, that guy's gonna

Liam: 17:36

smash Guardi, for sure. For sure, but I think, like, yeah, the list has no aura. It's like True, actually true. Yeah, right? It's the list just does not seem good. It's like like an anti meta Lugia, kind of, but like That's weaksauce! I want my Lugia deck to like, be defining the meta. Like, testing other decks as opposed to like, trying to cheese Gardevoir players. I want my Lugia deck to just be like, really good. Basically runs anything downturn 2, as opposed to like, I'm gonna run you down with a Drapion and I hope you're playing a dark weak deck. Like I think And it's a little bit more well rounded and like, targeting the meta is of course like It can be a very good strategy. Alex Kamansky did solidly, I think he had a cash finish. But, yeah, it's got no aura.

Abaan: 18:28

I think the one thing I will say is like, what you're talking about, like, you want a deck that defines the meta, and like, everyone else is kind of gunning for you, has to be like, those Guardiolas, right? Because with Monkey, Dory, and like, Drifloon, Bravery, and just all the tools they have, like, it feels like they're doing what they want, and like, everyone else has to, like, kind of have an answer for Guardi, right? Like, Guardi is the deck.

Liam: 18:51

For sure. But, I like, you know, I think Lugia still can be, you know, just a thing. You can build it aggressively while not, like, overcompensating for Gardevoir decks. And I mean, maybe it's not overcompensating, maybe it is, like, appropriately compensating, because I think, I agree, Gardevoir is, like, super duper insane. On that note, quick shoutout to Henry Chow. That guy's actually goaded. Oh my god, he had, like, infinite aura on his stream appearance. I like, oh my Lord, you got

Abaan: 19:22

cheated against the still one smile

Liam: 19:26

Yeah. I, I think I guess on that really quick, I did, did you watch the Noah video? I assumed you

Abaan: 19:31

did. Oh, I, I very much think Noah did not cheat. I was, that was just joke

Liam: 19:35

Yeah, agree. I, Noah just like, I just

Abaan: 19:38

thought it was funny.

Liam: 19:39

Yeah. No. Yes. I, dude, that's what I thought for like the, you know, of course when I first saw the clip, I think if you watching at like one time, speed. And like, it

19:49

looks terrible.

Liam: 19:49

You watch you watch it once at one time speed, it looks absolutely terrible. Because like, you're not really looking at where he pulls the cards from, because he actually pulls the stuff that he puts behind the first card from the front of the deck. Right? But like, it kind of just appears when you watch it the first time, and then you watch him put like, the top card, you know, the top card like, very clearly goes over it, like, you know, it looks super bad. But,

Abaan: 20:13

yeah, I like I will say, like,

Liam: 20:14

Wow, Henry Chaobat, Aura, oh my lord.

Abaan: 20:17

I just think, in terms of just shuffling, like, the fact that the top card isn't the same, it's like, people are using that as like the biggest, like, exoneration ever, but like, if, like, in the world that Noah is like an egregious cheater, he definitely could have tracked the fuck out of that card and like, kept it where it was, kind of, and like, changed the card on top of it, because he knew he was drawing two. I don't think he did that, I'm just saying that like, I don't like the people attacking him or defending him, I think people are kind of just like, I don't know, I don't like either of the arguments, but like, looking at it and like, just judging like, what I actually think happened, I think it's like, fine.

Liam: 20:49

No, yeah, I think what you're saying is like people can cheat while changing the top card, which is true, but the argument for people like, defending him or someone attacking him related to the top card is that if the top card doesn't change, and it's like an advantageous card that you want to draw into, you're definitely cheating. So like, that's something to to address first, I guess, if you're, like, looking at the clip. Especially because, you know, like I explained earlier, there's like when you watch it once in one time speed, it looks like the top card doesn't change. And so, yeah, I think that's something reasonable to address. But yeah, it also doesn't fully clear you. I think

Abaan: 21:27

one of the most interesting things to talk about, though, is, like, what is the correct next step moving forward? Like, first of all, he, like, got shafted out of a lot of money, right? Like, straight up, like, he was 8 1 1. But then, also, he didn't get his world's invite. Like, cause he missed out on the 80 points. Like, he was literally locked by just being 8 1 1. So, like, I think the least Pokemon can do, as I think they don't, like, give him back anything, you They just somehow, like, just, like, let him have a Worlds invite, and, like, I don't think you can, like, try to, like, give him prize money, like, it's kind of awkward being like, oh, you're projected to get this or that, but you can probably, like, I think you can give him the Worlds invite and just be like, well, because he's still, you could just slot him in within the same, like, imagine he lost all of his rounds and then slot him into those standings, right, and he would still have it, so, I think that's fair enough.

Liam: 22:09

Yeah, no, exactly, I think that, that really, really sucks for Noah, and, like there should really, like, if it's, if someone innocent gets like, shafted like that, it's really important that I think you try, you try to make things right. Like, Yeah, give him an invite, send him a little, we're sorry, we'll do better email, or something like that. And like, I think that would go a long way. Yeah, like, I mean, I think that would go a long way. I mean, do you think they actually will? That is a better question. No, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Yeah, no

Abaan: 22:43

way. They definitely won't, I'm just saying that like, if they were like a very like, if they were trying to make right, I don't think they could try to give him, like it's too hard to try to like, Give him like, yeah, no, definitely no

Liam: 22:53

prize money. No, no prize. No

Abaan: 22:54

prize money or like, I don't think refund. I don't know. I just think like, give him the points that he was supposed to get and just call it a day. Like, it's kind of fucked still, but like, that's the best you can do. Like, yeah, no, I mean, like, I don't know.

Liam: 23:04

You, you, you messed up. There's, there's no like, fixing it. There's only band aids at this point, right? Yeah.

Abaan: 23:13

Can we talk about the only way they can stop Gabriel Fernandez from winning?

Liam: 23:17

Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure dude. I'd love to talk about that. My lord.

Abaan: 23:21

I, okay, I don't believe it. Dude, Cam would love to talk about

Liam: 23:23

that.

Cameron: 23:25

I'm just saying, I called him. I'm just saying.

Abaan: 23:28

Okay, I don't believe his post that he was like, I played like a recent stamp for fun, but I had game on board, and then like, They DQ'd me like mid, like mid reset stamp, like, I believe that he wasn't cheating, like I, I think that's possible, but like, he said some crazy shit like that, like, the whole post is like actual comedy, like from start to finish, but,

Liam: 23:48

Yeah, no, I think that was, that was handled really terribly. Yeah, somebody's like, yeah, I was just reset stamping,

Abaan: 23:52

and, he's like, I had game on board, that was the crazy line to me, he's like, I had game on board, and then like, I just reset stamped anyways, and then they DQ'd me for looking at my deck. I was like, I don't think

Liam: 24:00

that,

Abaan: 24:01

that makes sense.

Liam: 24:04

I, I, I think what I gathered from the tweet was, yeah, like, he, basically, somehow, a reset stamp, like, ended up going from his discard to his deck, but it was in a matchup that it wasn't relevant to.

Cameron: 24:17

No, no, no, guys, guys, that's not what he did. Like, I think he, they said he was looking at like, that he had placed Reset Stamp at the top of his deck, and he said that he was playing against Control, so why did it even matter? That's what he was arguing to the judge, he's like, why

Abaan: 24:34

his warning.

Liam: 24:35

Yeah, no, no, I think

Abaan: 24:38

The the actual penalty, like, I I I pulled it up, let me read what he says here. He says, I was up 1 0 in the series, and I was going to win game 2, with no outs left for my opponent to win, I used my unfair stamp, and the judge said I was looking at my deck while shuffling. I was not looking at my deck, and there were zero cards I needed at that moment. I was going to win by simply attacking and getting to top 8. 10 3 1. With that, they decided to disqualify me. That's the only way they can stop me from winning. Gabriel Fernandez, 2021. Yeah, no,

Liam: 25:00

I think that makes sense, like, on a board state thing, right? He He's in somehow a favorable position, he's disrupting the opponent, and he's like, I have good chances to win after the unfair stamp. Right? Oh

Abaan: 25:13

yeah, the way he says it, though, it's funny. It makes it sound like he has game on board. Like he just has game, just unfair stamping.

Liam: 25:18

I think the tweet was terribly managed and like, the PR was not good. You definitely shouldn't be ending off a tweet after you get disqualified, like, that's the only way they can stop me from winning. I think, like Even if you think it's true, it does not matter. You have to,

Abaan: 25:39

It's a great tweet. S tier.

Liam: 25:43

Yeah, I mean, that was honestly just insane. It's way too fast, bro,

Cameron: 25:47

like Yeah, it's a 14 year old tweeting too fast after their DQ and I just don't know, I don't think he, I, I, I think he was acting emotionally and I just don't think he, I don't think he kind of fully comprehends Like, the reality of the situation now. I don't think he did in the moment, maybe he does now, but it's like, dude, you can say whatever you want, like, these are the kinds of things that call everything into question. And I'm not saying that he did or did not, we will never know. But it's just something like, that calls everything into question, and you kind of have to have the ability to realize that, and

Liam: 26:29

I think it's about a hundred percent. There's, there's no footage, there's nothing like that can 100 percent like, clear your name now, or 100 percent like, I guess cook your name. That's a thing. But like, yeah, you have to, you have to recognize that it's not, it's not good to have these like, allegations made. And like to be

Abaan: 26:51

the most winning senior the whole year and just dominate everything and then have cheating allegations it's like before when people were like oh he must cheat because he's like doing so good you could just brush it off like well like there's been yeah no that's a

Liam: 27:04

terrible terrible reason right yeah yeah now it's like now it's scuffed right

Abaan: 27:11

Yeah, I think so, too. I'm just saying, like, now it's so scuffed. Like, now, people, all those people are, like, somewhat proven right. Like, at some level. Like, they're not obviously, like, you can't say everything is cheating now, just because he, like, got caught not even caught, like, this, this whatever happened. I'm just saying, like An

Liam: 27:25

allegation was made, right?

Abaan: 27:26

Yeah. But it just sucked, right? Like, for him. Yeah, no, and I think, I think that's something that works out. If he actually

Liam: 27:31

is, like, a clean player. Yes, 100%. I, but I, I was gonna say, I think that's something that, that works in, in Noah's favor as well, which is, like, It's not like he's been going on some, like, super insane run, and I know Noah's a smart guy, Like, and you don't even have to be all that smart to do well when you're cheating. So like, you know, the, the chances I think, you know,

Abaan: 27:51

based on results.

Liam: 27:52

Probably not cheating, but like, based on Gabriel's results.

Abaan: 27:56

I assume, lowkey, that people who, like, get caught cheating on stream, I'm like, actually more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. Because like, I just don't think that human beings are like, so, so, like, greedy that they're like, Oh, dude, I'm on stream with all these, like, Twitter sharks. Just staring at it, like, I feel like most people are down to just take the L on stream and then go back to cheating off stream, if they are a cheater, right? Like, I don't know who is so, like, I don't know what the word is, but like, so cocky that they think that they're gonna get away with it, right? Like, I just assume that, like, most people who get caught cheating on stream, it's just kinda fake, like, I don't think it's real. Like, I just assume they're not cheating.

Liam: 28:33

I mean, I know for sure people have cheated on stream before. There was the guy in, I think, some, like, Puerto Rican SVE?

Abaan: 28:41

Eder, Eder. It was I 100 percent sure.

Liam: 28:44

Yeah, yeah, it was But that's still

Abaan: 28:46

small, right? Like, they're probably like, no one's even watching this shit, it's fine.

Liam: 28:49

Yeah, yeah. I mean I don't know, like, I don't really think it's about, like, the viewer count. That's not, like, I don't, never something that, like, enters my mind when I'm on stream or anything. Like, I don't think it would enter anyone's mind. I think it's more, like, the presence of cameras, bro. Like, you look up, and there's a camera right there, and you're gonna try to pull, pull, like, that, you know, like, boss from your discard or

29:10

something, bro?

Cameron: 29:12

I, I, that's the same thing, it's, like, the same thing for stealing. You know that, you know there's a camera there, and, in, in the target. Watching the aisle, but like, sometimes you just become so numb, or you're so, like, you just get that, like, you just have to, like, because once you do it, it's really hard to not stop. That, that's my take on it. Yeah, I assume

Liam: 29:36

that's, that's super true, like, it's, like, nobody does cheating, it's like a one off thing, I think, like, I think once they get away with it, they're like, damn, bro, that was easy as hell, like. Huh. It's almost like a rush, or like a

Cameron: 29:51

thing, right? Like, oh, no one got me, like, I might as well just keep ripping, cause like, oh, and then I get caught. You know, like, I can just kind of pretend, cause that's usually the thing with Pokémon. Like, can you really prove it? Yeah, dude, that's

Liam: 30:03

like one of the worst things ever. I, like, the basis of Pokémon on, like, not being able to prove, basically, like, anything happens. I think, but, you know.

Abaan: 30:15

Dude, I swear, it's like, every time I have to call a judge because of some, like, something to re resolve, I always think, like, as they're walking up, like, dude, my opponent could just completely lie right now, and like, what would I do? Yeah, right. Like, what am I know,

Liam: 30:29

there's like

Abaan: 30:31

He's like, no, I didn't, I didn't do that. Like, I just

Liam: 30:34

did it. I will tell you. You actually see it. You actually see it on judge calls. Like, specifically when it comes down to like, like whether or not you played a card or whether or not you looked at the top card of your deck, right? You see it all the time where they're like, dude, I swear to god, I didn't see it, bro. I didn't see it. It was like this. And then they lower the angle of like the draw or something like that. Like, you know, it happens all the time.

Abaan: 30:58

Not to like an

Liam: 30:59

insane degree, but yeah,

Abaan: 31:01

I had one time, it was last round of San Antonio, and like, low key, I was, I looked at the Pokedata going in, I was like, even if I win, I'm gonna bubble the money. And I was like, ugh, dude, I don't even wanna play anymore, right? And then my opponent like, definitely saw the top card. One sec.

Cameron: 31:16

I mean, I don't know, this, this, this is something that will kind of continue until the end of time. Sorry, go on about Bob.

31:24

Yeah.

Cameron: 31:24

I thought you were gonna be longer. Can you hear Bob, Liam? Or am I tripping?

Liam: 31:28

No.

Cameron: 31:28

No, I cannot.

Liam: 31:29

Okay.

Abaan: 31:32

Hello? Hello. Oh, there you

31:33

go. Oh, I was gonna say

Abaan: 31:35

he saw the extra card and I was like, there's like, there's no way you didn't see it. Right. And like, like the judge was coming over and by the time the judge gets there, I was already so over this whole situation. I literally, the judge comes, I was like, I don't know, I was stripping, nevermind. I didn't see it. Just shuffled the deck or like, he didn't fully see it. He like tried to draw it, just shuffle it. I don't care. Then I end up losing and I was like, ah, whatever. just move on. I like, I don't know. I was so over it. Like most of the time I feel like. I don't want, like, a DPL, because it's just so, like, boring. Like, you just get a DPL, and you're just like, okay, well, I guess I won this game. It's, I don't know.

Liam: 32:09

Yeah, no. Like, especially at Locals, too. Oh, dude, at Locals, bro? I, I literally don't care, bro. Like,

Abaan: 32:16

He could

Liam: 32:17

call him a boss against me for a game and I wouldn't call it, bro. I would just go home. That's where all

Cameron: 32:22

the practicing, that's where all the practicing happens, right? You gotta do it at the local level to do it in the big leagues, man.

Liam: 32:27

Yeah,

Cameron: 32:28

yeah,

Liam: 32:28

bro.

Abaan: 32:30

We have some locals who journal like every single game they play and like what happened and I was just thinking like imagine if one of them was a cheater and they just journaled like every cheating act they did and there's like a like oh today I plumbed three bosses stacked four candies. That would be

Liam: 32:44

crazy oh my god yeah like it's like like finding like a serial killer's diary right like

Cameron: 32:53

And I don't think, like, and unfortunately I don't think, like, like, whether Gabriel did it or not, like, like, you know, I can't make that call. I don't think any of us can make that call. But, I, unfortunately, I think that, like, that exact thing that he was ticked for, or hit for, looking at the deck while shuffling, is not an uncommon occurrence in the game. In the Younger Divisions, unfortunately.

Abaan: 33:22

It's possible he didn't need it, and he's correct on that spec, but he was just doing it out of habit, right? He was like, like, in the hindsight, he's like, I didn't even need to do that, but like, he actually did it. He just, like, he just does it all the time, so then it just happened that he got caught in, like, times where it's inconsequential.

Liam: 33:37

Yeah, no, and I, I think, I assume in Younger Divisions it's harder too, because Like, I don't know, dude, looking at your deck while shuffling is like something I feel for because I think, I mean, I don't really remember, I don't have a great memory like that, but I assume when I was younger, and I assume this is the main reason a lot of kids do it, is like, it is hard to shuffle. I know for sure that I struggled with shuffling when I was much younger, like when I was first getting into the game, I did not know how to shuffle well. And doing it, like, without looking is, like, always something that's really hard to do. Now, the angle of the deck, it should always be, like, pointed away from you. I that's, like, the easiest thing to do in the world. Just point the deck downwards, or, like, towards the table if you if you can't look away. I don't know why kids I think it does I I don't like downwards. I think downwards is really

Abaan: 34:24

I think downward sucks. I think you need to just pick a direction and point it, like, to one of your, like, side opponents. Like, I think that's the most, like, comfortable way to do it, because shuffling straight down is really hard, I think. Like, but if you get that angle right, like, to your, like, to your right or left, I

Liam: 34:38

mean, doing it straight down is, like, not possible if it's, like, you know, parallel to the table, but, like, I mean, like, if it's, like, 15 degrees off the table, you know, like, one side 15 degrees, or, like, makes a 15 degree angle, right? Like, something like that.

Abaan: 34:51

Yeah, yeah.

Liam: 34:52

Is like, that's the way I would do it. So something

Cameron: 34:56

I also want to bring up, and this is like, not, this kind of irked me at the tournament. And I'm not going to say the person, because like, I understand why. They were just like, I won game one, and then I pile shuffled. And I get it, like, I pile shuffled. You're crazy!

Abaan: 35:11

Nah! Nah, I'm not on your side, bro. That is crazy work.

Cameron: 35:14

No, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm allowed to take a minute and 30 seconds to shuffle the deck. And just because I start pile shuffling, like, doesn't mean that I'm gonna take over the minute and a half, and like, it kinda irked me when this person, like, was like, oh, you just don't, you don't need to pile shuffle, and I was like, yeah, I know I don't need to, but like, this is what I do. And like, I, like, to make sure I have the

Liam: 35:37

C cards. No, that, that is the dumbest thing in the world. That is the dumbest thing in the world. I'm, I'm never defending pile shuffling. Let me finish.

Cameron: 35:45

So, like, And then, so, I, look, and I never take much longer, if longer at all, than my opponent to shuffle. And then, I, and then they win game two, and then in game three, they ask me again, they're like, You don't need to pile shuffle. And then I don't pile shuffle, and I instantly break. And I know it has nothing to do with it, I know it, like, It's like this weird occurrence, but it's like, I really hate that it's like, just because it's something that you don't like, that you feel the need to comment on it, like, as long as I'm done shuffling, within a minute and a half, and I'm shuffling, like, and I'm We're properly randomizing the deck, like, I just don't understand the, the, the need to tell me how I should shuffle. Okay, Shidoi, let me explain this to you, let me explain this to you,

Abaan: 36:31

no, no, no, let me get this, let me get this, please, please, please, bro. Dude, imagine, Shidoi, that instead of pile shuffling, your opponent just stood up at the table and just spun in a circle for like a whole minute. And then shuffled for 30 seconds at the end, and then presented a cut. That wouldn't, that wouldn't slide, right? You can't, like, possibly be doing it.

Liam: 36:48

What if they just started, like, walking around? Yeah, like, like, they go check out the game, like, two tables over, and they're like, bro, I have a minute and 30 seconds. I'm actually doing something. I'm, I'm actually shuffling. No, you're not Pile shuffling is not the anything. And you know, so this was,

Cameron: 37:02

and the best was the best was when I played against Azu. I started pile shuffling and I heard him sigh. And then guess who handed the deck to a yes? Aula. I love you. Zul handed me the deck Azu. I said, I looked at Azu and handed him my deck and he's still shuffling and I pile shuffled and I'm like, you're the guy who's making a big deal because it takes so long. And guess what? I presented my deck to you faster than you presented it to me. So what do you have to say about that? It does not matter because the time. Literally, I presented the deck to you before you did to me, and you want to make a big thing about shuffling, and I randomized my deck sufficiently. So what is his argument? The argument's always like, it takes so much longer, and No, that's not the

Abaan: 37:40

argument!

Cameron: 37:42

The argument

Abaan: 37:43

is that you're not shuffling, so like, you're just wasting time. Like, your deck is like, less random. No,

Liam: 37:47

he Cam's saying he's not wasting time because we have to wait for the other guy to shuffle anyway, and to that, I would say, yeah, the other guy should probably shuffle faster if you can randomize. And like, 15 seconds after basically just sitting there doing nothing for a minute, the other guy should, yeah, probably randomize faster. But like, yeah, defending this practice of like, basically just getting up from the table, walking away, grabbing a drink of water. I'm counting

Cameron: 38:08

to make sure! It only happens, and I get it, until you realize, like, you get in trouble for not having the 60th card. And then, like, cause I have gotten game losses for that because you accidentally I'm down for you

Abaan: 38:18

to plow shovel before the series, and after the series, before you walk away, and like, when you first sit down. Just in the middle where the clock is ticking, I especially knowing how you play the game is crazy, bro. Like, imagine your opponent's already fuming, it's like, every every generator has taken like an hour. He's got the two energies, he's just sitting there figuring out where to put them, every single generator, you know, every action is taking an hour, and then at the end of this game, this 35 minute battle, Banger. I just lost you lying.

Liam: 38:42

The whole lot. Pile shovels. Yeah. No, no. Okay. Actually, no, this is actually literally the exact same thing. I, instead of going up and grabbing a drink of water, I tell you I'm gonna go check on the left, very left end of the table. We're sitting in the middle of the table. I'm gonna check on the left end of the table. You know, walk like 10 paces down and see if I drop the card under there to make sure I get 60. Bro. that's like the same thing, bro. You're just, no, it's not. Gotta go check it. You got 60 bro. Gotta go check. Make sure you didn't drop the card check.

Abaan: 39:13

Our boy Drew though, unfortunately, did somehow drop three cards and fucking dropped, like playing sea power at LA regionals and got dq or not dq. He like got a game loss and then just dropped'cause he was just pissed off. So like, I don't know.

Cameron: 39:27

Happens. At OCIC last year, I think I was sitting there and then a judge walked up to a person and was like, Hey, are all these cards under the table yours? And it was like 15 to 20 cards, like underneath the table, just like on the ground. And I was like, dude, how do you not notice that? Like, there's 15 cards missing from your deck. And he just looks under the table and it's just like cards, just like, it's not like it's like in a pile. So, you know, he's not doing anything, but it's just like splayed all over the ground. And you're just like, Bro, how did you not notice that? That degree that you just didn't notice, like, a third of your deck is gone.

Liam: 40:05

I yeah, bro, I don't even think you need to pile

Cameron: 40:07

shuffle to know that, but

Liam: 40:10

I don't, I don't pile shuffle, and in, like, ten years, I've, like, Never play the game with like, 59 cards, bro. Like, I don't know, I don't know what the process is for losing, losing cards, bro. I think you're supposed

Abaan: 40:21

to pile shuffle, no, you're supposed to pile shuffle when you first sit down, because I have left cards in my deck box. Like, I've left like a card in my deck box, I pile shuffled, realized I had 59, opened my deck box again, and I saw it. Like, I mean, sure, I could just like, look more clearly, but like, I don't know. Do you

Liam: 40:34

like, put your sleeves, like, right there? Right behind, like, empty sleeves right behind your deck or something? No, no, no, it's literally a clean deck box.

Abaan: 40:42

I don't know, it just happens. Yeah, I mean It's not that sometimes it just, I don't know, it just doesn't happen. Yeah, like Oh, you know what actually it is? I have those little containers in the deck box, right? The two containers, like, the double stacked. And what sometimes will happen is when I put the deck in really fast, a card will literally Like, not be in the container, and so it'll be like, behind the container, but in the box, so like, the box is empty, but then when I open it and I look, yeah, so that happens to me sometimes, so, I just pile stuff up when I sit down, I think it's, I think it's some good practice, like, the time, there's, the time's not ticking, so who cares, like, if I wanted to at the start of every match, go to the left corner and check the deck, like, I could, time's not ticking, who cares. Yeah, yeah,

Liam: 41:22

exactly, exactly. I, Doesn't matter if time's on ticket.

Cameron: 41:27

Thanks for having this conversation. If you're gonna go, I just like to, I just like to stir the pot a little bit. Oh. And, and I, and I polish Shuffle against Liam. Need that. We need that in testing just to piss him off and just, you know, I, I, I polish shuffle against these guys in, in testing just to see their reaction and they always get mad. Yeah, dude, shoutout to Cam's opponent, bro.

Liam: 41:47

Yeah, like, you're just wasting time, bro. But, shoutout to Cam's opponent, you were OMEGA BASED. If anything, Cam, name drop them right now. Name drop them right now. We should all, like,

Abaan: 41:57

fun there. Yeah, name drop them, bro. We need it. They're the GOAT. I bet it was Alex Chabansky, lowkey.

Cameron: 42:05

No, I didn't. You're feeling good, Pi?

Abaan: 42:07

Oh, okay, okay.

Cameron: 42:07

No, and it was like, it was fine, like, we were we were cool, like, I wasn't bad at the person, but I was just like, bro, just

Abaan: 42:13

leave

Cameron: 42:13

me alone, like, I just want to shuffle the way I want to shuffle.

Abaan: 42:15

Cam is an inherently superstitious person, like, in a lot of I was like,

Cameron: 42:20

I just like, I have my process to doing things, and I like, you can hear me count, like, the amount of times that I shuffle, like, mass shuffle the deck, like, if if you play against me, I'm like, to because i want i do it 25 mass shuffles and you can hear me count it out i always do it like especially at the beginning of the game before the game starts

Abaan: 42:39

before the game starts that's valid 25 seems like a normal amount

Cameron: 42:43

yeah after i like after i pause shuffle i go like you you after i pause shuffle i mash up with 25 times and then i present the deck like it's just like a routine at the beginning of the game at the beginning of the game

Liam: 42:53

i know that i i

Cameron: 42:55

don't i don't i don't mash up with 25 times like

Liam: 42:57

in

Cameron: 42:58

during the game and i know that i think having it

Abaan: 43:00

doesn't matter the number specifically But, like, having a specific number makes it so that I'm, like, completely, like, Obviously, it doesn't matter either way, but it I never think, oh, I didn't randomize enough. It's like, this is my process. It's a random process I do every time the exact same way.

Liam: 43:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's what it is. Super based upon. Yeah. I I do it

Cameron: 43:18

to, like

Abaan: 43:19

Yeah, but you

Cameron: 43:19

pause

Abaan: 43:20

shuffle before!

Cameron: 43:21

That's the crazy part! Oh, yeah, so I pause shuffle before my Yeah. Have

Liam: 43:26

a number, and just, like, you know, shuffle, shuffle that many times. And then just Just present it.

Abaan: 43:33

Aw, man, I started Manaphy, Six Energies? It is what it is, that's the process. I did the process, it's not my fault.

Cameron: 43:39

It

Abaan: 43:40

feels bad

Cameron: 43:41

when I didn't get to do the process.

Liam: 43:43

And then you break.

Abaan: 43:45

That's hella funny, actually.

Liam: 43:47

Yeah, dude, I'll do a quick highlight, or a quick recap of my NAIC run. There was nothing really notable. I yeah. Okay, there was nothing notable. Yeah. I got cooked by, I highly realize there's

Abaan: 43:57

no highlights.

Liam: 43:59

Yeah. I got cooked by some guard players, but then, then I got cooked by Marco Fuentes can do some glazing. That guy's like, actually him he was playing Salazar and he basically threw Yogi because the first game I, all right, I was literally gonna lose. I had like two prizes left and Tempest dive under with a DPE. You know, I said it. I definitely wouldn't have let me take it back. I wouldn't hold my opponents for not letting me take it back. I entered the attacks up. That's like, rule of law or whatever. Not rule of law, but yeah, that's the rules. I think that's totally fine. Nishida, can you get

Cameron: 44:33

that back for me?

Liam: 44:34

Yeah, and I think that's completely valid. This is like a no take back game. I don't think If you can just undo all your mistakes, that, like, gets rid of the point of the game. But no, Marco is way too nice, and he was like, Yo, bro, don't worry about it, go 5 0 turbo, bro. And then, he still ended up So, see, you know, I did the thing, I attacked, and he still ends up getting to a crazy favored position, except I topdecked boss to beat him. And then, so I topdecked boss to beat him game 1, and like, dude, when I tell you crazy favored, this guy was doing a whole masterclass, bro. And, like, this was basically every game. And he's like playing Sable's Ark, and like, I get down to the end of the game, and he's got like, literally like 5 cards total. Right, like, this isn't like Lost Box, he's got like 5 cards in deck, and like a 13 card hand. This is like, he has 3 cards in hand, 2 cards in deck, I look through his this card, and he basically just tells me all the relevant accounts I'm about to check, like, I go to grab his discard and he's like, I have like, switch energy boss, by the way, like, I'm like, oh, okay, bro, and like,

Cameron: 45:41

He's like, that's three of the five, you can take a guess on the other two, but,

Liam: 45:45

yeah, yeah, like, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, he's like, Yeah, dude, there's there's only like six switches in there, there's no boss, and there's only one fire, and I'm like, oh, okay, bro. And, yeah, so dude, he's just like, masterclassing me. And then he basically does the same thing the other two games, and like, I just I just get coked, bro.

Abaan: 46:02

Korea is crazy, bro,

Liam: 46:03

that's all there is. And then no, and and then the last game too, he literally dead draws. Like, he opens terrible. And, I basically go up like, three prizes, but the only thing he had, he's basically playing off like, solo cram. And like I I get bundled and I shove an Archeops because I'm like, dude, there's maybe it was a mistake looking back, but like, yeah, I'm like, dude, I want to give him the one prizer, right? I don't want to give him like a Lugia to chip, and then Radzard finish, or whatever, right? To chip for Radzard, but yeah, so he cramped the Archeops 110, I like boss rescue board comfy, because I don't want to like, KO cram, let him promote that or whatever, Right? And, like, the only card in his hand is, like, a Prime Catcher. He, like, you know, he's got, like, five cards in hand, you, like, Flower Select, Prime Catcher, Prime Catcher's the other Archeops pass, and then, I basically go up, like, three prizes, it's, like, three to six, and he goes, like, Roxanne he hits like Roxanne's Sableye to KO both the Archeops and put 40 on my Lugia. And with the Sinnoh, yeah. He was playing double Sinnoh, but it actually didn't matter that much. I had a miss, I think, on the Lugia, but I double prized a miss. But it didn't even matter, he had the Sinnoh. So he goes, yeah, like 40 and then 40 on the V Star, and then I go to two, and then he Ursulunas and goes to, Goes to two as well. And, and yeah, like, he like, closes out the game from, with Radzard from there. Yeah, you can't clean up there, it's Luna. Well, you could've ripped Ursula,

Abaan: 47:28

Oh, no, Ursula doesn't close. And he got,

Liam: 47:30

he got, like, a temple to stick, and I was off, like, Roxanne, so, like, yeah, my board was, like, giga shambles. Because I also, like, somewhat bricked in the mid game, because the gifts weren't popping, you know, like, I, like, basically, like, resourced another supporter, so I was just, like, sitting there, kind of, taking prizes. But yeah, dude, oh my god, Masterclass would be so hard, it's actually crazy.

Abaan: 47:52

I think Lugia needs to play a second Jamming Tower in this Guardian meta, and like, everyone and their mom playing so many Signos, like, you just have to play two Bombs, I think. I

Cameron: 48:01

get, like, so, we had, we had been testing Lugia in the lead up, and I think we did have two Jamming Towers. And then I think a lot of, if not everyone who did end up playing Lugia from our testing group, like, ended up cutting one of the towers for a second bear, for a second Blood Moon, which, like, I get why, because Blood Moon's, like, the most broken card from the new set, but I think, like, even if you're going to play two, you probably need to fit the second Jamming Tower back in.

Abaan: 48:26

I agree.

Liam: 48:28

Yeah, I think two towers is fine.

Abaan: 48:31

Can you tell me a little bit about how these guardies were cooking, by the way? I want to get a visual of what's happening. How do you lose the matchup?

Liam: 48:38

Yeah, alright, I mean, the first one I just drew really bad. Yeah, most of it does come down to if you miss the turn two Archeops. If you hit turn 2 Archeops Iron Hands, like, you do kind of just win. Okay,

Abaan: 48:51

that's what I thought. That makes sense.

Liam: 48:53

But yeah, like, I was, I think I was overestimating my win rate in games that that didn't happen. Like, where I was like, oh, you know, if you go first and you miss the turn 2 double Archeops, and like, you know, but they miss like a turn 3 like, attack or whatever, miss the Guardia EX, you're like, still in the game or something. Like, you are like, not in the game. Like, you are just fake. You're like, fake in the game. Yeah, it's like, you're gonna, you're gonna get cooked.

Cameron: 49:24

So yeah, I like, I just think a hammer smacking Archeops is like, also really good.

Abaan: 49:30

Which is why I like the double lightning, so like, all the bumps, you know, like, I just like that. No, I,

Liam: 49:37

I found that that play was like, it was, it was less relevant than I thought. Like, What's really, what's really weird is when they actually like 190 smack the hands with the monkey and then they're gonna go like monkey again And take the hands and like I own you, so like none of your stuff pops. Yeah, like they like remove a lot of threats in one turn. Yeah, that's exactly what Natalie did to me. Yeah that's that that's like the scariest slide, I think. And if you draw perfectly, you just always win in that line, but you don't draw perfectly all the time, right? Okay, but imagine you just had

Abaan: 50:10

a Drapion on the bench, right? Like, imagine you just had a Drapion on the bench with, like, N energy, and you just got to promote it and kill the Lugia for game. Or kill the Guardian

Liam: 50:18

for game. Yeah, I think the Drakon's probably pretty good. I mean, it's hard to say, that line is still, like, just super scary, bro. You know, you're going to go to two guys that are going to remove all the energy, they're going to remove the, whatever. Sure, but

Abaan: 50:34

if any Ultra Ball for Lumi for boss isn't out to win, like, you're feeling better. But that's

Liam: 50:39

not even, like, always the case. Like, they can go, like, Monkey KO the Hands, and then, like, Monkey Guard EX KO the Drapion or whatever. Like, I mean, I guess you can grab Thornton. But you're not going to promote

Abaan: 50:48

the Drapion, so they're going to have to promote, like, Screamtail. I don't know. The thing is, too, like, If you are making them use, like, stuff, like, to kill Screamtail on the or, like, Screamtail kill on the bench, and you're playing, like, two Jamming Towers, if you just draw a Jamming Tower, you just, like, kind of win on the spot, right?

51:03

You also don't need to play, like,

Cameron: 51:04

with the Jamming Tower. I'm sure Alex is also winning by just, like, Thornton ing out the Drapion, right? When you're, like, oh, I'll just, I'll just, I'll just, like, Garde y smack your Archeops, because I don't think you can do anything, anything, and you're just like, oh, Thornton, Clap your Garde. Oh. Ah, man, maybe I can cut that card. That was the

Abaan: 51:23

first thing I cut.

Liam: 51:25

I think that's like a real line, right? Which is like, after, after you hands, and then they guard EX, if you don't have the boss, but you can get into the Drapion, which is like a lot easier, right? You, you Drapion, and then the best thing for them is like, they at least assume you have no Drapion, they like, return guard EX. Garde EX, or like, second Garde EX, Kayle, your Dragunov, I don't know, and, but then if you get, yeah, exactly, like, all your Luminions turn into outs to like, Thornton, and then, subsequently knockout. Yeah, that makes

Abaan: 51:52

sense. Oh, the other thing I wanted to lab in Lugia is, what do you think, Shinoy, about Klefki as your Thorn's counter? That way you can like, completely gimp Lost Box, like, they can't even play.

Cameron: 52:06

Yes, yeah, I mean, I, why did we, I guess Klefki is well it turns off your own Lumineon, so like, it does turn off your own Lumineon, which is kind of bad. That's

Abaan: 52:16

not that bad, bro, like you'd, sure, but any energy card can let you retreat in Lumi if you need it that bad.

Cameron: 52:22

Yeah, but I also think, just like, the Fluttermane is good because it's like a decent attacker in Lost Flock, against Lost Flock, in Lugia, and it's also good against It's actually like decent against future thorns too, because you're like, oh I'll just smack your thorns for 90 and then I'll set up the back thorns or like your hands or whatever with the 20 and now I can knock out with like Lugia if I really need to or, or, the,

Liam: 52:46

the attacker Lugia has for that is the Wominion, right? You can, you can awkward turn into the clap kick. Yeah, to apply pressure. So I think, I think it's like, kind of good in that sense. But like, the Clefty is just like a bad card, right? It's, it's objectively a bad card.

Abaan: 53:00

Yeah, yeah. It's just a Lost Box killer. It's so broken against Lost Box. The way they can't recruit Greninja, they can't bundle around it, and they can't, yeah. That's the point. I just think if Lost Box is like, if you're trying to beat Lost Box, I think Clefty's probably the best, but I don't know. You were telling me that Bundle has more applications than I think, and I honestly haven't played enough Lugia to have a strong opinion either way. I think, I think Flutterbane's the worst one. That's all I'm getting at. I think Fluttermane sucks, personally.

Liam: 53:25

Yeah, I agree. I think I'd just go, I'd commit to the Clefji if you're trying to, trying to like, not lose the thorns. They're like double thorns, right? And Bundle if you're trying to just get the good deck. It's not a real attacker, you don't want to

Abaan: 53:41

commit that many energies to it, think about it. Like, you really don't want to use Fluttermane to attack, I think.

Liam: 53:46

No, I think Fluttermane's a good attacker. I, I, it's like, If it's working, and they're not able to do anything, it's a very satisfactory attacker.

Abaan: 53:56

Sure, but like, they're gonna bundle around it. Like, it doesn't sit there for that long.

Liam: 54:01

Yeah, no, I mean, I think in a world with bundle, it's not that good. I'd much rather play Klefki, for sure. Yeah, if there's no bundle or something, for whatever reason, like, the Fluttermane is really good. It's also, like, a generally, it's a more solid card than, like, that attack is actually pretty good. It, like knocks out Kirlia and does the double spread, which is, like, always good against Garrity. Isn't knockout Kirlia, you have

Abaan: 54:24

to, like, put three energies raw, that's crazy.

Liam: 54:27

Oh, you have Archeops. Like, This is like mid game,

Cameron: 54:30

you just drop it.

Abaan: 54:31

Can you really commit this? But also,

Cameron: 54:33

here's a question, as someone who played Lugia, and you just saw that Gardevoir like dominated top 8, are you worried about like, two Ironthorns that kind of like snuck their way into top 32, and me and the other guy who like, got top 32, and like, you're tanking for us? Or like, are you tanking for Gardevoir?

Abaan: 54:48

Oh, I'm very worried about the guy who got first, actually, with the Ironthorns.

Liam: 54:52

Yeah, exactly. That's why I want to play Clans Key. The Lost Box, the Lost Thorns don't really count. Like, those are Do you think Bundle is good enough for that matchup? And I think the Bundle is just like a staple. Yeah, no, the Lugia versus Ironthorns? Yeah. Versus the Thorns and Lost Box.

Cameron: 55:13

I think it's like solely dependent on like, like the Thorns player just has to make reads. So like, I played against Walker, and, and the thing is like, I knew exactly what he was playing. So it's just like, oh, I know he's playing Bundle. So like, I just benched the second Thorns and there's nothing I can do, right? So like, the knowledge helps. This is just for Lux's

Abaan: 55:33

single thorn. Oh,

Cameron: 55:35

okay. Yeah, if you're gonna play against single thorns, then sure.

Abaan: 55:44

I think we're losing to double thorns. I'm down to lose to that. That's valid. That's fine. I mean, sometimes I Lux I can just hit the boss anyway, right?

Liam: 55:50

I think that's a fine call to make as well. Like, I think, I think winning it to double thorns is like, Not a bad thing, it is a factor, but yeah, you're, you can get by, if you think you're gonna play like a really good card in the spot. It's a totally fine cost. I think the other

Cameron: 56:04

two, I think the other two future boxes that did, like the one who plays slightly above me, and then the other one who was like down in top 64, top 128, like the other two lists were playing only one Thorn. So like, Bundle should probably get you there, even against that, unless it's me. Or you're playing like, something closer to my list.

Abaan: 56:24

You know the one thing I will say like one unrelated thing I want to bring up to you guys is like, I think a lot of people are assuming that Guardi is going to be really cracked in this next format because like, I mean, it just did so great at NAIC, right? I've played

Cameron: 56:35

It changes a lot, yeah. I think that would be the point. But

Abaan: 56:38

I think 0 6 is insane, bro. I played like the, like a pretty similar list to Lucas Xing's Zard Control this morning. I 10 games against it, and I was like, wow, just the 0 6 on the most random turn and then hitting with a Zard is insane. It's just broken, like, it's, it was actually giving me an aneurysm trying to figure out even what I'm supposed to keep as Guardi. And I think I made, like, good decisions, and it was just like, I can't keep all these cards, like, and then, there's so many side outs, like, if you get rid of too many Turos, like, you can just, like, lose to Mawile randomly, or, like, there's so many, like, side outs to the, like, the normal outs that you just, like, you actually are just, like, freaking out. Every time you see a 0 6, I don't know. Seems like Guardi's kind of If people are, like, aware, it seems like Guardi's kind of mid. But, that's just I'm kind of kidding. Yeah.

Cameron: 57:23

Yeah,

Abaan: 57:27

yeah, it does. Guardi's not mid, obviously. I'm being a little facetious, but I'm just saying that, like, people don't really process how good that new card is.

Liam: 57:34

Yeah, no, 0 6 seems, like, really insane. It takes the

Abaan: 57:41

Misfortune Sisters slot, right? Because before, you wanted to be able to do something to, like, disrupt them when nothing's really happening. And now, you can just, like, Elec every, like, two turns, and basically just, it's like Chi Yu at home, you know? You're kind of milling to, if they're refusing to play against you. If they're trying to, like, assemble Exodia. It just, it's so nice that they, like, before with Misfortune Sisters Yeah, that's

Liam: 58:03

actually really true. That's, like, really good. Jesus. Yeah. Exactly, bro. You guys are

Abaan: 58:09

like, not understanding

Liam: 58:09

how to play this. No, no,

Cameron: 58:11

no, no, no, no, no. I believe. Like, hand block, hand control is like, my favorite. Dude, I thought I believed too, but

Liam: 58:17

I just, I just looked at it, like, I visualized it and oh my god, I'm like, on my knees now. That is actually insane.

Abaan: 58:25

I've been playing a lot of World's Format. Don't worry, bro.

Cameron: 58:28

Discarding it on a 3 is insane. Discarding it on a 3 is insane. I don't want to like, you know, I know that. We're still a ways away. I don't want to like, if you're working on this as a hidden tech, I know you didn't go to NAIC, but Ubahn, you were like playing, you were playing your control list with Luxray, and so it's just like, oh, Xerothic, and then you keep three, oh, let me actually just look at your hand and also just rip out the best card that you kept. Like, that seems insane.

Abaan: 58:54

And having to think about when you okay, first of all, Luxray EX I like it, but after playing it a lot, I I think the Lugia sets I was having, I I mean, it's hard to tell, because Lugia is so, like, varied, but I literally played, like, another, like, 15 games, like, yesterday and today, and I was like, man, Lugia just keeps hitting the nuts on me, and this Luxray shit is so fake, but then, like, the, like, 30 games I played before, I was like, wow, Luxray EX, like, owns Lugia, so I don't know, I'm like, kind of like, More interested in Zard, but even Luxray V, right? Like, it's so hard to keep a permutation of good cards that's also resistant to Luxray V. Like, how can you 0 6, and it's like, if I only keep one Turo, I'm going to lose the game on the spot. Fuck. So I have to keep both Turos. It's like, okay, well, I can't. I'm freaking out. Like, this is impossible. I'm going to lose this game. How can I keep my Bravery Charm? Or do I put them down and get Vacuum? Like, it's so impossible to play against this card. I don't think people get it yet, you know?

Liam: 59:48

Yeah. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I think before we end it off this would not be a real NAIC podcast unless we talked about Gardevoir really quickly. We should play the Henry Chow list. This goes crazy.

Abaan: 1:00:01

Yeah, the, the, I think Stefan's list is like, it's so cookie cutter that it's like consistent and good, but dude, the multiple monkeys Triple dark seems like after playing Guardian a lot recently. I totally get why his list like popped off. I like Henry Chow better.

Cameron: 1:00:16

So, quick question, like is it the multiple, multiple monkey, and this is just'cause I don't play a lot of Guardi. Is it just to see it more often, or are you actually benching both, and, and, like, doubling up on it? You're benching

Abaan: 1:00:28

both. You're

Cameron: 1:00:29

doubling up. Easy shenanigans, bro! And then you have Flutter, and then you have Flutter main, and then you're just like, you can use Flutter main, and then you're just like, you just, or, whatever, and you're just like, Moving so much damage to their side of the board. You can, if you

Abaan: 1:00:42

even, think about this. If you monkey a Manaphy for 30, yeah, if you monkey a Manaphy for 30, at any point, you can do the Urshifu tech, where you just, like, kill their Manaphy and then Screamtail what you want. Like, Henry's kind of right. Drifloon is kind of fake, because you have all the reach you need with the multiple monkeys. Like, you can hit, like, crazy numbers anyways.

Liam: 1:01:01

Yeah, no, the Drifloon is, like, definitely not needed. Yeah, Henry's used to Screamtail on odds. Awesome, Alderaan. That's just off the top of my head. I

Cameron: 1:01:08

don't know about the Devo. I

Abaan: 1:01:09

get it, but not sure.

Cameron: 1:01:11

I have a question for you guys. I know it actually didn't do well. I know Xander Perrault didn't actually make Day 2, even though he kind of like, styled on his opponent in, in, on the stream match, I think when he went to 5 0. I think Polaris finished top 32 with the deck. Like, do you think that deck could reel at all? Like, it, With the Monkey Dory Frost Blast control, essentially. Or like, even if it's like, not their list, like, you just make changes, do you think that is viable at all? It's just like another way to use Monkey, right?

Abaan: 1:01:42

Every time I see the deck, I think, wow, this deck is completely cracked and the people playing it are kind of terrible. Except like Xander on stream, but that matchup's free. But, I, even though I can see the power level, I can't ever imagine I wanted to play this monkey over, like, Guardi, right? Like, it just doesn't make sense to me, right? Like, Yeah, I

1:02:00

did.

Abaan: 1:02:04

I was, I was vomiting, bro, watching you play that deck. The way you put the damage on Greninja, I was screaming. I was like, there's no way it's gonna die anyways, bro.

Liam: 1:02:13

Yeah, bro. The math really adds up like that, bro. It's you have to have like more than like just this turn foresight.

Abaan: 1:02:23

I'm so happy you got Punish though, like that, that made my day. Watching you lose that game after doing all that was hella funny.

Liam: 1:02:32

Yeah. Ooh, ooh it hurts, bro. Oh my god.

Abaan: 1:02:38

So I guess that was like our NAIC recap, does that mean we're gonna talk about like world format like next week? And like, I guess every week after that? Yeah, I guess

Liam: 1:02:43

so. I have no idea. We'll figure it out. We'll

Abaan: 1:02:47

figure it out. We could always just yap, you know? That's the right issue. We didn't even really talk about anything. I don't know what we talked about for an hour. We

Cameron: 1:02:54

talked about pile shuffling, we talked about cheating, we talked about Xeroth sick, we were just all over the

1:03:00

place.

Liam: 1:03:03

Yeah. Alright. Sounds good. Jon Paul's our outro. More yapping next week, bro.