Brent: 0:05

Welcome to the Trashalanche. It's the only podcast about the Pokémon Trading Card Game. We say it every week because it's true. It's sad there are no other podcasts. There's no other, like, social media or way people learn about Pokémon, except for classes people charge people to attend on Meta 5, which is crazy. Cam's here, but only for the next 5 minutes, and then he's handing the mic over, Liam's here, I'm here. That gets us to 100% ish? It's a weird win today. But we're going to talk about NAIC, and we're going to talk about Candy, and apparently Liam says that's going to easily fill like 2 or 3 hours, so you know, if you're driving to New Orleans, you'll have something to do. Cam! We only got you for like 5 minutes, tell us your LA story, and then tell us what you're going to play for NAIC.

Abaan: 0:52

So, my LA story I was between Aban's Pidgeot control deck that he obviously top aided with, that he showed me, I didn't have a lot of practice with it, and just playing it the night before, I was like, I am not playing this up to its full potential, and it'll be, probably be an issue tomorrow when I'm actually not drawing Insanely Hot, which I was doing in our testing, so I went to Dialga, Cut one card for a Turo, because I thought Turo was very good against Control, which I expected a lot of. And it might have been decent otherwire, in other places, in theory. I ended up using, like, Turo three or four times, and it was actually pretty impactful every single time I used it, which was really nice. I saw someone else get top 64, top 128 with a Dialga with a single Turo too, so I don't think I was the only person with that idea. Started out 7 1 2, which is like a decent start to a tournament, I guess, and then got rolled by Lugia in the, what is that, now we're heading into round 11. So, got rolled by Lugia. Lost a really close one to Ancient Box, and then played a Game 3 against Chen Pao, and where we kind of were both scrambling for, to find pieces, and then unfortunately he just found the outs quicker than I did, so, I just dropped after that because I had no chance at making money and, you know, like, I already have my invites, what am I playing for at this point? I just, you know, checked out, checked out of my hotel, supported everyone else But yeah, that was my run unfortunately I couldn't go any further than the 7 1 2 start, but yeah, I think the deck is fine right now, and then my ideas before I pass it off for NAIC, I would just play Dragapult I've been like, as of right now, it's the deck I've put the most time in with, it's the deck I feel the most confident with, and maybe the second one would be Lugia, so, outside of those two decks, I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe Miridon. Maybe Miridon might be the third deck. But those would be, like, the main decks. But that's just right now, right? This is just initial testing. I, it was like a couple, like a week or two of testing before. before Los Angeles, so it's not like set in stone, it's just kind of where I'm at in leading up to these next two weeks. All right, and I am going to, and I'm sure you guys want to hear more about Eban's run, he made top eight, so I'm going to hop off, it's going to be the Eban and Liam show, and I'm going to pass it off to him now.

Brent: 3:14

Dude, dude,

Liam: 3:15

Sounds like you did a lot of supporting, though.

Abaan: 3:16

it's me Eban,

Liam: 3:20

Yes!

Brent: 3:22

guys, my impression is this is the podcast that Liam has been waiting for because apparently there's gonna be, like, like, I don't even need to be involved here. There's gonna be so much, like, yappin and craziness. It's gonna be bonkers. This is very exciting.

Abaan: 3:35

got all the app, that's for sure, so if Liam wants the app too, feel free.

Liam: 3:39

Yeah, no, I'm cutting that out, bro. I'm cutting that out. Yeah. Like, yeah, we're

Brent: 3:48

That, I mean,

Liam: 3:48

not going on

Brent: 3:49

you can't, you can't manipulate the meta if you don't meta manipulate.

Abaan: 3:53

yeah, of course, of course. I mean, I'm one of the biggest manipulators, you know, but I try to help my friends. I told everyone about Pidgeot. I told everyone for weeks, like, play this exact list. Like, this list I've tested for, like, so long. Just start practicing now, because you're gonna need practice. And then the week rolled up, they're like, I don't have any practice. I can't play the deck. I don't know. What can we do about that, you know?

Liam: 4:18

Dude, Cam has literally been saying, he'd practice Pidgiet to be ready for the next event since San Antonio dude.

Abaan: 4:25

It's a lost cause,

Liam: 4:25

San Antonio. It's, yeah. Like, this is a guy bro.

Abaan: 4:30

At

Brent: 4:30

don't they

Abaan: 4:31

up on him, bro. He's he's gonna, like

Brent: 4:34

like don't they pay you guys to test? Isn't that what you guys do?

Abaan: 4:37

I mean, yeah, I tested. I told him the results. Like, you have to play the deck at that point, like, that's I did my job. I did my half.

Liam: 4:46

And dude, after every event, he's always like, Oh my god, yeah, Pidgeot was definitely the play, bro.

Abaan: 4:53

Because it's always the play. He's kind of right. He is right about that. It's always the play.

Liam: 4:57

yeah, it's been pretty good for sure. Dude, because the deck is like so grossly over teched. That like, the last few four, or like the standard list since it kind of came out. Alessandra's lists were good, but at this point, for like, Since post rotation, they've been, like, so, so overtaxed. They've had, like, a million power cards.

Abaan: 5:19

No, I agree. I think the Bouffalant

Liam: 5:21

I think that was something that you did a really good job of. Yeah, no, the buffoon was I don't know, actually, like, going forward, because it really swings the mirror. It's, like, so good in mirror.

Abaan: 5:32

Is it? Don't you have the

Liam: 5:34

to be more important.

Abaan: 5:34

Like

Liam: 5:37

but the mist gets stretched. Like, you want to pivot through attackers, kind of. And at least, the Bouffalant's scarier, too, in the, like, the normal Pidgeot version, because there was a, there was a window where they were playing Gyakumo, so they'd hit the mist and then hit the energy. And,

Abaan: 5:54

Yeah, yeah.

Liam: 5:55

the Bouffalant's, like, scary in that sense. Like, you can't spam Chi Yu or spam Luxray or something like that, like, as easily, which is, like, the key to the mirror,

Abaan: 6:03

No, I agree. No, I agree. My issue, though, with Bouffalant is just that, like, it's so telegraphed and, like, it I was only I caught so lean on energies. I went to take two fire, one DTE, one mist, so it's, like, I can, like, if I Bouffalant is, like, three cards I have to add. Like, I have to add the second DTE back and, like, it's just too it was too much. It was kind of bad. I wanted to

Liam: 6:23

You know, it made a lot more

Abaan: 6:24

kept trying it and it's,

Liam: 6:25

Like, it has a lot of synergy with the Zard. Right?

Abaan: 6:28

Yeah.

Liam: 6:30

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that Bouffant was a good cut.

Abaan: 6:33

one thing about One thing about Next Format is, I think, with Pidget, with E Hammers, and the I think the the A Spec that no one's talking about in Pidget is Reset Stamp. I think that card is completely bonkers, are you kidding me? Like they take a random one prize and I just get to go Arvin for my, like, Bravery Charm or Defiance Vest and the Reset Stamp? That just seems crazy, like And then I get to Luxray them, like, even if their two cards did have a supporter, I'm discarding it instantly, like, I think that Reset Stamp is gonna break Pidget, but I don't know, maybe, I haven't really got to test it that much, yet.

Liam: 7:04

I, like, that was always the idea behind the Unfair Stamp. It's like, oh, like the turn 2 hit. But a lot of decks just have, like, so much, so much on board draw that it's hard to make it stick. And like, especially Pidgeot doesn't seem like a great deck to capitalize on it. Like It doesn't, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because even if, like, every other deck, it doesn't work. Like, stuff like Dragapult, it, it, or like, it kind of works, but it doesn't, it doesn't work to that effect and that consistently. And that's a deck where, like, even if they miss for, like, one or two turns, you're, you should be just, like, instantly winning. Whereas for Pidgeot, if you get, like, a Luxray or a Chi Yu off, or, like, another Alekki, or something like that, you don't instantly win the game, depending on the matchup. And so, like, it, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like, I don't think it sticks all that often, and the times it does stick, you don't instantly win. Like, if they topdeck a supporter in two turns, after you Unfair Stamp and Luxray once, Chi Yu once, how much progress have you really made? Like, if they just topdeck

Abaan: 8:01

I think one caveat is that they're not really allowed to have an on board engine because of that new walking, Teal Mask Ogre Pawn. It's like, you could maulwile even a Pidget now, it's

Liam: 8:12

yeah, just Retreat Lock? Yeah, yeah. I,

Abaan: 8:15

it so they can't have an onboard engine at all, because of the

Liam: 8:20

other issue is The, the teal mask gives up two prizes, unlike all of the other retreat locks. It gives up two prizes or like the, the meta retreat locks.

Abaan: 8:27

Yeah.

Liam: 8:27

and like, so, so even if like benching the a liability like p is not as large as a of a liability when they, like, they win the game in like two attacks from hitting switch effect, they, they get a lot

Abaan: 8:40

is actually winning in two attacks? Like, what is killing a 260

Liam: 8:43

mask than they used to, or like, I don't know, like something like Raging Bolt Yeah, like, like Raging Bolt, Gardi,

Abaan: 8:50

think Raging Bolt, my solution for Raging Bolt so far has been either, I, like, they just don't have Mimikyu outs, right? Like, as far as I can tell, like, are they, like, I looked at, like, a lot of the

Liam: 9:02

play the Ogre Pawn,

Abaan: 9:04

the, wait, what do

Liam: 9:05

the, the, they play the

Abaan: 9:07

Does that have Shred? I actually didn't look that hard at it.

Liam: 9:10

It's a, it's a shred. Yeah, yeah, it does. Like, it's, it seems really bad, but it makes, it makes the Mimikyu strategy hard.

Abaan: 9:18

I think the other aspect, though, is that you can just Blood Moon Ursa Luna sweep, like, all the time. Like, there's just, at any point in the game, you can just go Reset Stamp, Blood Moon Ursa Luna with a Bravery Charm, and just sweep your board, right? Like, isn't that

Liam: 9:30

Reset. That's, that's what everybody says. That's what everybody says because I, I don't think they've actually tested much with the, with raging bolt. Like that deck is uber consistent. There is like, there are very few cards that they draw that's not like an out for them. Like, because all their energy just turn into card draw. They're playing like four pokey gear or four trekking shoes, four and like pokey stops and like 14 energy, four vessel. And like all of those cars, they drive, they, it turns into more car draw. And then, like, while they're drawing those cards too, they're throwing energy on board, and then eventually they find Sada and they one hit everything. Like, Iono is not a very real counter to to Raging Bolt. I don't think Disruption works as well as people imagine right now.

Abaan: 10:12

But can they really hit, like, a 350 HP, like, 300, they had to hit for 350, right, to kill a Bravery Charmed Ursa Luna. That seems dubious, off our Reset Stamp.

Liam: 10:25

Well, I mean, they stack energy prior. Like, their board usually is like, it depends what you're leading, but usually you're not able to throw something up that sucks all of their energy on, like, turn 1 or turn 2. When they're getting like four or five energy really really fast aggro on those aggro turns, then all they need is like two Ogre Pawns and like a SADA, and they get there. And like, the Ogre Pawns are like card neutral, like it's not, it doesn't cost them anything, it helps them dig for the SADA, like, it's really easy for them to take a knockout every turn, I think this is like by far the best aggressive deck that we've, maybe Pokemon's like ever seen. When it comes to, like, taking a turn 1 KO, turn 2 KO, turn 3 KO, and just hitting for insane numbers on command Bolt Ogre Pond is really insane. When it comes to at least hitting really hard,

Abaan: 11:13

I just I was gonna say, like, I was just pivoting a bit. What do you think about the Pidgeot Lugia matchup? Because my plan was gonna be, like, whenever they take a knockout, I'm just gonna, like, countercatch her and Archeops, use the wall, and then just start e hammering all their energies. And hope, like, okay, I hopefully buy, like, a turn or two of no jet, e hammer a bunch of

Liam: 11:31

Yes, yes. I think this is so much better than the Kill Chinchino option. Yeah, like, just playing to hope they miss the jet. And this is also something that's really good with a handheld fan. Because you can throw it on, and like, them hitting with the Archeops is like, basically just loses the game at that point. One card that I thought was interesting was Stunfisk. It's got 120 HP, it's ability is if it has a tool attached, and it takes damage, put 5 damage counters on the attacking Pokemon, and it does, and it has a retreat lock, it's fighting, but it only hits for 30, so it hits for resistance into the Archeops, so it goes net zero. And, if you put the handheld fan on, hitting into it basically just costs them, like, all of their energy, assuming they have, like, a, a pretty wide board because you can spread it around, and then, like, Gyakumo, and that should be getting, like, the benched attacker, the handheld fan energy, and the Archeops, and they still have to retreat out of the Archeops, like, I think you should be able to get a ton of energy, and it also somewhat plays around the jet if they, if they only have the Chinchino powered up. Or else Giacomo gets like a lot of value, if they only have the Chinchino powered up, because they take 50 when they hit into the Stunfisk, so the Pidgey is enough to return KO. So I, I think that's like a cool option, but, it, yeah, I mean Lugia's still hard, like, the,

Abaan: 12:46

thing is, like, I don't really want to play Giacomo

Liam: 12:48

and just hitting the Pidgeot.

Abaan: 12:50

Like, I want to

Liam: 12:50

I think, I,

Abaan: 12:51

the deck, and I want to just play, like, multiple e hammers and call it a day. I don't want to keep playing Giacomo. That card is terrible.

Liam: 12:58

I think, I, I mean, at this point, the e hammers and the Giacomo do the same thing. They're just Lugia targeting. I think one e hammer is maybe, like, good for Dragapult and you can just tell yourself it's for Neo Upper or something like that. But you're really just targeting, you're targeting Lugia super heavy when you play, like, special special energy disruptions. So I don't think, like, cutting Giacomo for e hammer is, like or, like, positive for the deck in general, you're still just targeting Lugia. You have to

Abaan: 13:22

Yeah, certainly, I get that it's not 1

Liam: 13:25

could just be better, like playing a wave of Ehammer, right? Like just playing a wave of Ehammer I think is like an interesting idea, and like Alecki to get it back, and trying to do something with that, but yeah, I don't think you like

Abaan: 13:38

also think that

Liam: 13:38

make the deck better by cutting Giacomo

Abaan: 13:41

think the Sleep Dawn part on E Hammer though is like, you can get rid of mist. Like, you can use that te like teal like there's like no counter to this teal mask ogre pawn running over like so many decks. And the other thing I wanted to bring up that I put in my list that I'm not sure if it's good or not, Is like, if we have Bloodmoon or Saluna, I've been thinking about the other Radiants, thinking, like, against this Dragapult meta, like, I think Serena could be extremely good, because, like, if you want to have a Sandshrew on the bench, in general, you can just Bravery Charm it, and then with Serena, like, I'm worried, like, let's say you're playing the Guardi matchup, right, and they just, like, use the, the Monkey Dory and kill you, like, put 30 like, I don't want to have to use a whole penny on it every single turn, so I think, like, The, finally having the Radiant slot open up, like, I don't really know what other good Radiant Pokemon there could be other than Serena, but I think Serena makes a lot of sense in the deck. There's so much damage counter spread, like, in the format right now.

Liam: 14:27

I think Serena's pretty cool. I actually think the, the Dragapult plan is pretty robust already though, which is like, you just shove Mimikyu and put a Mist on the Pidgeot, and like, it's really hard for them to deal with that. If they're not playing, like, all the lists are not really committed to like good single prize attackers right now except for maybe Lostbox, but, but Lostbox you can, you can kind of just beat by playing Eri, I'd assume. Like the, the straight like Xatu or Pidgeot version, they really struggle into Mimikyu. And I don't, I don't think you have to play like Sandshrew or anything like that. In that matchup specifically. I, I think Serena's not bad, but I, the slot I think can be used better because your Dragonfall plan's already like so robust.

Abaan: 15:02

I think it's actually more for the Guardian planet, realistically, right? Like, I don't know, I think you do have to bet Sandshrew for sure in that matchup. But maybe it's fine, you don't need Serena, you can just Bravery Charm your Sandshrew and call it a day. But, I think if they're able to Turo four times, they're gonna lose. Like, I've been seeing, like, two Turo Padless, and I was like, I don't you can't beat that. Without Sandshrew, obviously.

Liam: 15:22

Yeah, that's true. I think one of the weaknesses for Guardi that I think you can actually target though with Pidgeot is, and what I've been targeting for a while, is the Bravery Charms. And, and the tools. This was what my Indie list was built trying to target. It wasn't as good. I was just taking the Osta Guardi. But, especially now, because they're only down to two bravery charms, and you can just target, try to target the bravery charms. And if you're able to remove them both, their damage cap goes to like 220. Maybe 250 if you stretch it with the Monkey Dory. But either way, you basically just get to shove Heroescape stuff, like with immunity. Impunity. But like, yeah, I think targeting the bravery charms is like, maybe the better strategy going forward against Guardi. They don't have a lot of gusts, so like, If, if you just hit their attackers in that way, I think, I think that's the best angle. They also, they're, they're tight on bench space. I think, like, even, even though there's, like, theoretical answers to, like, a lot of the stuff they do, if they get, like, Monkey Dory, Cresselia, Screentail, Drifloon, all this stuff down. They usually can't commit to all those options in one game, they have to pick and choose, and so like, targeting their resources just like naturally is also or like collateraling it with other cards for other matchups is like, probably pretty realistic because the deck is not like as strong as

Abaan: 16:33

Yeah, does that mean you you

Liam: 16:35

can also play the

Abaan: 16:35

in there, for sure? Oh, wait, what does the Milotic do?

Liam: 16:39

It stops Turo. It's a Stage 1, though, so like, it's a lot of space, but like, it could definitely be good. And I think Zard's going to see a Resurgence. So, yeah. It's new. It's new. It just got printed. And, yeah, I think Zard's going to see a Resurgence that's playing Turo. And so, yeah, it's stopping that in both decks. Like, if you can stop them from, like, Turo ing against Zard, the Pidgeot's, like, a lot less safe of a bench for them, which is good.

Abaan: 17:08

I think my mindset, though, is I hate thinking about any card in Pidget that even remotely helps the Zard matchup because, like, that matchup is so face to face easy that, like, I just assume that if I'm playing anything that beats If my Pidget control beats any other deck in the format, it beats Zard on accident. Like, I'll just figure it out. So, like, I don't like to consider that as, like An

Liam: 17:27

Yeah, yeah, no, I definitely

Abaan: 17:29

all, I like kind of win.

Liam: 17:30

yeah I think it's, it can be close if you're not, if you, if you don't, if you're not conscious of it like, if you take like my indie list, for example, which was, I think, under teched, right, it didn't have enough power cards, if I wasn't playing the Luxurious Cape, I think that matchup actually just

Abaan: 17:47

Yeah. I, I agree. I agree.

Liam: 17:48

Like, if you cut enough stuff from the deck, you can, it's easy to lose. But, yeah, you only need, like, one answer, really and that's enough, right? So, most lists can do with less to beat Zard but it's something you still have to be conscious of, for sure.

Abaan: 18:04

Yeah. I mean, as long as I, like, I did realize, like at at LA I did have the luxe cape still in there. So like even if the mimic You plan completely failed, I don't even know how it failed. Like I did have that backup of like lecky looping. I think the main thing though, against Z is like as long as you have sand true, it's

Liam: 18:18

Heat Tackle can be annoying.

Abaan: 18:20

Yeah. Oh, well, I mean,

Liam: 18:21

this answer is really good against Zard, for

Abaan: 18:23

I think the vest was a great last I could add. I think having the Defiance Band would have been alright, but the I think Defiance Vest was like the best last second add, cause like, it's not just about like specifically blocking 40 a turn, it's like, also like an extra bravery charm when you want to like, protect your Rotom on the bench, and like, in general, like, the Vest is just like the most left on card, it was just like, I I was it was everywhere, I'd like, put it somewhere, I'd like, okay, perfect, Penny, put it somewhere else, like, that card was just moving around all game, like, with my hero's cape.

Liam: 18:52

yeah I think the vest is good, it has a lot of synergy with the hero's cape, right? Stretching the back,

Abaan: 18:57

think, like, there's so many things in this format now that Teal Mask Ogre Pawn can lock that I just can't unimagine Pidgeot not being the best deck. Like, I was already locking stuff with Mawile with 190 HP, and this thing already has, like, 210 naturally, plus 50, and then you just play a bunch of DTEs, like, I don't get how it's not

Liam: 19:12

I, I, I thought that as well, but it's, it's like, it's a little bit harder, it's for the issue that I said earlier, which is like it gives up two prizes, and that's a lot. Like, going into it, it's harder to go in too late, like It's, like, imagine your Mawile always had the Luxurious Cape attached, instead of like a Bravery Charm or Defiance or a Hero's Cape, like, It's suddenly, like, way, way weaker and not something you want to commit to quite as much. I think that Teal Mask is still good. It's still good. It's still better than, like, Mawile and Snorlax and all that stuff. It's, it's a really good option to have, but it doesn't, it's a little bit fragile and creates some weaknesses similarly to, like, a

Abaan: 19:51

the only thing I want to add, though, is, like, if your Mawile If Ramallah had the cape, right, then it can't have another tool. Like, the part that's broken to me isn't the raw Teal Mask, it's the fact that Teal Mask gets to, like, have, like, a hero's cape, or defy its vest.

Liam: 20:04

Yeah, yeah, like, yes. Yes, kind of, but it's, it's hard to work out. The other thing that's not great is the deck doesn't like to play two DTE. I, I don't think at least. It's, it's not the worst card in the world, but if you can go to one DTE, that's really good. If you're playing the Tailmask, I think you have to go to two. So like, it's,

Abaan: 20:24

I I may have done something crazy. I cut the

Liam: 20:26

Like, it's good. It's a

Abaan: 20:28

I'm playing 3 DT, no fire. I think fire energy's, like, lowkey slept on or, like, kinda bad. Like, you don't need Chi Yu, you don't need Radzard, you have Blood Moon, Earth's Luna, and Ogre Pawn. Like, I've completely, like, gone away from any colored energy attackers. I have, currently I'm running 3 DTEs, 1 Mist, 1 Jet. I think Jet's good because, like, a lot of times you can't afford to have the Pidget anymore, so it's so not it's so awkward to, like, not have a Pivot if you don't have Pidget out. So, I I think without Jet you'd have to play some kind of Tanky for your Retreater, but I don't

Liam: 20:56

a lot of flexibility, like,

Abaan: 20:59

Cause it feels like you don't you're not priced into using Penny every single turn.

Liam: 21:02

yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I liked Jett a lot. I will say though, one of the downsides of playing like, no, no no basic energy is the, you lose super rod value. Like it lets you be a little

Abaan: 21:14

Oh, I cut super broad, I'm playing Rox I'm playing Roxanne only. Or,

Liam: 21:17

Yeah, yeah, or, yeah, Rosanne, yeah. I mean, I'd play the unless that didn't have special energy, I'd just play the Thornton for recovery. But it's noticeable. Like, losing Super Rod is, and like, the ability to stretch energy that far, and Pokemon on an item like, it's something you notice that has, like

Abaan: 21:35

I think Thorin should've have always been in the deck, right? I think Thorin is a mainstay no matter what. And then I think the other one is, if you don't want to play Roxanne or whatever, Or, Rosanne, sorry, I keep saying Roxanne, sorry. The other one is Team Yelchir is is goaded, right? Like, Team Yelchir getting Pokemon, I I feel like everyone forgets about that fact, But, literally, that's enough. Thorin and Yelchir is, like, plenty of recovery. You don't need You don't

Liam: 21:56

yeah, the Elchiric getting Pokemon is, like, is huge. That's, like, probably, probably, like, half the uses I use for it, because you never need that volume of supporters unless you're already in,

Abaan: 22:05

Yeah, exactly.

Liam: 22:07

It's, like, usually, like, two supporters on a Pokemon or something, like, or multiple Pokemon. That's, yeah, the Pokemon recovery is really important. All right.

Abaan: 22:17

think in hindsight, in my LA list, I think that third Pal Pad could have easily have been the Yelch here. I, I don't know. I went back and forth on needing the Pal Pad fast. It's like, if you play two Pal Pad though, and you prize one, it's tragic. It's like a complete tragedy. You have like, you're probably just gonna lose.

Liam: 22:32

That makes sense, yeah. I don't know. I might have played the Elch here.

Abaan: 22:36

You know what's funny? That last

Liam: 22:38

I don't know.

Abaan: 22:53

gotta catch him all while caped, and then he prized Primecatcher both games. And like, he made it, like, he's a nice guy, but he made it seem like it was a big deal. I was like, it's not a big deal, like, you were gonna lose even with a Primecatcher, bro, like, you were at five

Liam: 23:06

right? Like, they

Abaan: 23:06

Primecatcher's not

Liam: 23:09

they flipped over the prizes like, dude, that's where my prime was, and I would have got you on that. And the other thing too about the prime for the mobile is like, the mobile sticks around. You can't kill the mobile that turn. So like, you get, you just get counter catch. Like,

Abaan: 23:22

but,

Liam: 23:23

it's like guaranteed to stick, right? Oh, yeah,

Abaan: 23:27

they can bundle first,

Liam: 23:28

bundle. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, if they really want to kill them. Oh, wow, yeah,

Abaan: 23:33

They really should do that too, especially if you have Deluxe Cape on them all while, they should 100 percent do that.

Liam: 23:38

Yeah, yeah, for

Abaan: 23:39

Or the alternative line that they could try but no one has ever tried against me except myself against me, is you countercatcher the Shantrue, Cologne, and then Silene the countercatcher back right away and then use a ball card to shuffle the catcher into your deck and then take the prize with hands

Liam: 23:53

Yes, yes,

Abaan: 23:54

right? But no one does that. Literally no one's done that

Liam: 23:57

trying to get around the Sanctuary's, like, solid. Yeah, it's, it's hard to get that, get that together too, because you have to do it without supporter, and you're getting, like, airy spammed, right? Because you

Abaan: 24:07

And you have to do it like in secret too, like if I ever see it I just put a tool on the Shantrue. Like, if I ever see that coming, it's over, right? I'll just Sandshrew tool the Sandshrew, and then it's over. Because it's only worth your time if you're getting two prizes from it. Otherwise, it's like, kind of a, a moot point, like, like, why would I even bother doing all that?

Liam: 24:26

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay.

Abaan: 24:47

Like, as long as you have a non hanceable one prizer on your bench, for at all times, it's fine. Like, Elekki does the same purpose.

Liam: 24:54

Yeah, I think, I think Chenpao, like, there's not a lot of plans for them, except for run you down. Like, if they don't, if they don't just, like, win the game in the first, like, three, four turns, they lose. So, like, yeah, I don't,

Abaan: 25:05

Yeah. In my testing, I did try the strategy of like, never benching Bibarel or Greninja, and sometimes when you just drew like, Irda into Irda, it like, you kinda did get there, but Unless you drew the complete nuts without using Bib or Greninja, you just lost the game. Like, you'd just get Misfortune Sister Spammed, and you'd lose too much stuff, and you'd lose the game, right? But, that would seem like the most winning line.

Liam: 25:27

Yeah, yeah,

Abaan: 25:27

trying to go too fast with the Bibs was like, never winning. Yeah.

Liam: 25:32

Yeah, I, I felt like going fast with the bibs was like always good, at least, into, into the old lists, I think, I think the lists that weren't playing Manaphy and weren't playing the three Pidgey, they have a chance to lose to when you run it down, because like, they're only finding like one, two, one Pidgey turn one, like, the list is just not as, not as consistent, and it's not as good at rebuilding the Pidgey, like, they kind of have to give up everything to go into the Pidgey. And then if you hit the Prime turn 2, or like turn 3, and remove the Pidgeot, they, they can fall flat, like a decent chunk of games. But

Abaan: 26:09

I played too. Like I guess I played like eight or nine auto wins, so like it didn't really matter, but then the games that weren't auto wins, I was like, oh, thank god I have my three pidgey Manaphy. I'm gonna win like no matter what now.

Liam: 26:22

Yeah, that was one thing I was really surprised about by

Abaan: 26:24

when they go too fast and you have the stuff, you just win, right? Like, it doesn't, like, if you play the deck even with five games with three Pidgey, you just know it's, it's

Liam: 26:32

you lose. Yeah.

Abaan: 26:33

Do you want to talk about some other NEX

Liam: 26:35

you literally only

Abaan: 26:36

maybe how to play Dragapult?

Liam: 26:37

finding the Pidgey. Sure, yeah, yeah.

Brent: 26:39

Wait, wait, wait. So before we transition, Ivan, I want to, I gotta ask you a question. I keep telling Liam that it, everyone has to already just give Liam credit for inventing the best deck This past format. The, the like Pi out with the thin chars are line, that's, that's the Liam Halliburton innovation and he invented it. And everyone else the, the Azu team and the Bradner team and all that stuff. Look at Liam Liam's like, no, no, no, no, no.

Liam: 27:07

No, yeah, this is, this is my father I

Brent: 27:09

is Liam's

Liam: 27:10

being a dad. But yeah, no, I literally talked with Isaiah about this already. For some reason, any time changes are being made to a deck, or like, it's like a new deck, people, I, I don't even know why, but for random decks, People, people, like, try to claim credit for a deck even after, like, a massive innovation was made. Like, nobody looks at Tord's EUIC 60, which is, like, a few cards off of the Metazard 60 and being, like, Dude, this random guy at an online who played Metazard, like, two weeks ago built a deck. Like, shoutout to that guy. Like, he inspired Tord. Like, dude, all of Tord's ideas are, like, it's, like, multiple cards different. And, like, taking credit for Tord's list at that point is, like, insane.

Brent: 27:50

Well,

Liam: 27:50

like, the small differences are everything.

Brent: 27:52

I think, I think the difference is, the difference is, like, at least in my mind. So I'm interested in Neban's opinion on this, because I've already heard Liam's opinion, I'm not interested in that anymore, because it disagrees with mine. Charizard, like, that was an archetype that they just handed you, and you're like, they're like, here's a good card, you should just play this and you'll win, you'll win stuff. And then it was just a matter of like, okay, who's gonna build the optimal 60. That is like, everybody's like, okay, that's a thing, but then there's, there's decks like this one, or like Pidgey Control, where Pokemon had absolutely no idea of the madness that they were about to create, and, and I, I think for those kinds of decks, you could totally say, hey, there's like, there's like some person that was like the person, and if it's like an online person, great, more power to them, I'm sure there's instances of that. You know, PokéHawkeye, like, like rocking stuff in the you know, pandemic, whatever.

Liam: 28:46

That's that's Alessandro then. Yeah, and I think giving credit to Alessandro's fair. Yeah. Yeah, that, honest to God, that is like, probably, Alessandro does not give enough credit. That easily puts him in like, you know, top five players for this format or something, like, or like the last year. The idea of

Abaan: 29:03

That list was actually, like, life changing how good it was, right?

Liam: 29:07

yeah, like, the ideas in that list were just, were just insane. Alessandro is insane for that.

Abaan: 29:14

Wait, so

Liam: 29:15

like, his innovation has basically, basically defined the format.

Brent: 29:19

Yeah.

Liam: 29:20

Yeah, bro.

Abaan: 29:23

I think, okay, I will say that I had never seen that idea, and when I, I did play it at Locals actually, cause I took it, I took it from the Discord, I ripped it at the local, right, and I was like, and everyone was like, shocked, right, but who, like, locals don't know what's going on, so that's like, obviously not, like, a good metric, but the point is, like, I actually think that like, he definitely, like, was the first person I ever seen anywhere playing, like, a thin Zard line in the Pidget, and, like, having it be reasonably good. I, I don't know if he, like, Tord was, like, the one who, like, really put it on the map, though, right, like, Tord is the one who got the top four. With it, like, Liam just won, like, 5 3 1, Day 1 of Indie, like, I don't know, I think, like, it has to still be Torrid who kind of, like, I don't know why Isaiah's saying he invented it, right? Like, isn't it? I think the most person who has the most

Liam: 30:06

No, Isaiah's saying he perfected it.

Brent: 30:08

No, no, I mean, let's

Abaan: 30:09

Sure, sure, that's, that's

Brent: 30:10

Creating and Mastering Pidgeotto Charizard Control. So, like, he created it. Or, or maybe the

Abaan: 30:17

Yeah, the way he's saying he's created it is crazy. Heh

Liam: 30:20

yeah, he's saying he perfected it. He actually, like, literally Clarified that exactly in the reply under it.

Brent: 30:27

Dude, I, I, dude, hey, dude, you gotta sell some tickets? Sell some tickets. I, I feel that. I feel that. I feel that.

Liam: 30:33

I, I also, I mean, yeah, I, I think I had some, there were like some like, slightly novel ideas in the list, but it's you know, all the players who played it after me had like, novel ideas as well. They're

Abaan: 30:44

I mean, no one put me, I think No one really talks about the Luxcape that I was playing and like, you and I have been talking about forever. I think Luxcape is like the most underrated card in that like, everyone who's seen me play with Luxcape is like, wow, this card is obviously broken. It's like you're playing two Heroescape and like, especially with like, with using Luxcape like, you can use it with like, Mantine or like, I don't know, there were so many like, interesting cards that I used Luxcape on that whole tournament, it was just a broken card. It was like, the Heroescape got to stick on my Pidget and then I could Luxcape. Moving around as, like, as I please. Like, I was often, like, using Luxcape on a Mantine that couldn't get one shot against, like, Ancient Box, for example. Pennying that up, promoting, like, a Mawile, looping Fluttermane, like, the Luxcape was just so cracked. And also, you don't have Peony anymore, so, like, oftentimes it's your first Heroescape, not even, like, the second one, right?

Liam: 31:33

Yes. And, and that's one of the, the cool things about it too, is Your opponent doesn't know if you prized the Hero's Cape, so even in games that you prized the Hero's Cape, you just lead with the Lux Cape, and they're like afraid to use the VAC, because they're just scared of the Hero's Cape. So like, it's, yeah, it lets you play with the

Abaan: 31:52

You know what's been my experience, actually? It's funny. I feel like no one, none of my opponents have been scared of using the VAC on the Lux Cape. All of them just like, rip it instantly, and then they just get punished when the Heroes Cape isn't prized. Yeah, I don't know what, I don't know what was going on. I agree with you that they're not allowed to do that, right? But they would just do it anyways, and I would just be like, okay, I'm gonna RADZAR sweep you with the Heroes Cape, or I'm gonna like, do whatever I want now, like, bet.

Liam: 32:14

Yeah, yeah, dude, once you get the Hero's Cape, like, all of their counterplay just like instantly disappears. Like, if you get to run the Hero's Cape without the VAC into a lot of matchups, they like, You just win. That's, that's really

Abaan: 32:26

I think my favorite example was against Alanzu. It's when I used the Radzard sweep against Lostbox, where he used the, I got rid of the Gusts, and I got rid of the Vac, and I was like, there's like no counterplay to this 260 HP Radzard just hitting you every turn. And Iono and Penny ing, and that's it. And countercatch what I want.

Liam: 32:42

Yeah. Yeah, dude, the

Abaan: 32:45

like, how Bloodmoon Ursaluna isn't cracked.

Liam: 32:48

I, I think it's, it's good. But it's

Abaan: 32:52

But it already has, it's already Heroescape Radzard, like, am I missing something? It's like Radzard was Heroescape, but then you can also put another thing on it.

Liam: 32:58

good. Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's good. I think. There's like, there's some drop off in return to like, adding more and more HP buffs. Like, to an extent you unlock like, some new avenues, but there's like, also avenues that will just like, always remain closed, no matter how hard you hit. Which is like, I think something like Raging Bolt Ogre Pawn, which is the meta, meta, or like, leading the meta shares right now in online tournaments, like, you could get something up to like, 400, 450 HP or something, and like, you're probably still not safe. You're, you're, you're like, Your thing's probably still gonna die, because they just, they just hit as hard as they want, whenever. Like,

Abaan: 33:40

Yeah, that's the scuffed part about

Liam: 33:42

something like Roaring

Abaan: 33:43

could never fix the Lugia matchup.

Liam: 33:46

yeah, exactly, right? They just

Abaan: 33:48

it's like, no matter how big my, my, yeah, exactly, no matter how big my thing gets with my Heroescape, you don't even play back your Chachino, like, I don't have pressure on it, so you're just gonna load it up, and I'm gonna die. Like, every time my Heroescape Pidgeot was on the bench, it would just take an extra turn. It's not like it was it was like, it was invincible in every other matchup I played, except against Lugia, where they're just like, okay, well, no worries. I had the knockout.

Liam: 34:11

yeah. What, what do you think about the Great Tusk in, in Pidgeot? I haven't tested it much, but It

Abaan: 34:18

Why would, why would I

Liam: 34:19

but it doesn't,

Abaan: 34:20

Am I missing?

Liam: 34:21

It's the greatest EX. It does

Abaan: 34:23

Yeah, yeah, I know, but like, which, what's the point?

Liam: 34:27

It does you can put a defiance band on it and it one hits Chinchino and it doesn't die to Lugia or Blood Moon.

Abaan: 34:32

Nah, I'm not playing that. That doesn't sound good,

Liam: 34:34

You're not playing that?

Abaan: 34:35

don't, I wanna like stick to my e hammer plan and I'm not

Liam: 34:38

I mean, it, I think it's yeah, I think the e hammer plan's good as well, but it's, it's the prevalent idea to try and deal with Chinchino. It's like, it's, it's the hunting raft plan, right? You just keep. Keep trying to hunt the Chinchinos, and then eventually you just get to shove stuff with Bravery Charm, Hero's Cape, and they never die.

Abaan: 34:54

I'm not confident that I'm not supposed to play Hero Escapee anymore. But the thing is, like, I'm not confident that I'm not supposed to play Hearthscape and I'm supposed to play Reset Stamp. But if I do play Reset Stamp, like, I'm gonna be all in on using my, like, e hammers on gifts, too, right? Like, I can also, like, if they overcommit, I can just literally go e hammer the gift, Reset Stamp, knockout. And, like, I don't know, the e hammer playing just seems so cracked. Like, I don't need to play Great Tusk. I refuse to play that card. If I'm playing Great Tusk, I'm not I'm putting the Pidgeot down. I'm playing, like, Raging Bullets or something, bro.

Liam: 35:20

the, the, the issue is you, you like, you, you don't have great volume for hammers. Like, they play like, what, like 13, or, they play like 16 energy. Even if you commit three slots to E Hammer, which don't do like anything in any other matchup. Or like, there's maybe a few matchups where it's helpful, but like, Gardi, Raging Bolt Zahr, Chenpao, Dragapult, they don't do a ton. Maybe the Neo Upper and Dragapult, but there's not a ton of value in all of those matchups. Even if you commit like three slots to the Enhanced Tamer plan, you get them down to like 13 energy, which is like, still a ton to work with. Like

Abaan: 35:53

I'm

Liam: 35:54

not sure how,

Abaan: 35:55

now. And one thing you can do is you can use, like, Reset Stamp. You can double E Hammer and literally Silene on the same turn. And just grab, like, you can, like, reasonably, like, triple Hammer with just Silene double Hammers. If they're not disrupting your hand very much. Their deck might be too fast for that, admittedly. Like, I haven't really

Liam: 36:13

but like, That's like three hammers and you invest the turn, and like they basically just Archeops all the energy back immediately. And like, they have nine energy left in deck. Like, it's like a lot.

Abaan: 36:26

Sure, the plan really does hinge on you getting a couple of free turns of no Jet to E Hammer, right? Yeah.

Liam: 36:33

Yeah, yeah, like I think think the e hammer, you have to either have a solid way to slow them down, like I think either doing Retreat Lock, or just like even, even shoving One Prizers, you could play like Legacy Energy too, if you want to go like Legacy of Eki, or something like that. Survival Brace is good as well in that matchup, I think. And, and just try to like, you know, survive hits, it's yeah, I think you have to have a good way to buy time. You can't just bank on like hitting, playing like a few e hammers, and seeing if they fold. Yeah, you

Abaan: 37:05

Oh yeah, you can't actually run them out of energy. It has to be like a stall in to run them out. Yeah, it has to be like you have to be sitting there like, cycling back your hammers and

Liam: 37:14

Yeah, yeah, right, that has to be like a long term win threat, as opposed to like an instant win threat. Yeah, okay,

Abaan: 37:19

Yeah, we're on the same page I think on that.

Liam: 37:21

Moving on to Dragapult,

Abaan: 37:22

been keeping too much up with the online scene, like

Liam: 37:24

the rest of the meta?

Abaan: 37:24

good? Dragapult? Yeah, yeah.

Liam: 37:28

Yeah, I think, I think like the four biggest decks are like Lugia, Dragapult, Guardi, Raging Bolt.

Abaan: 37:34

Have

Liam: 37:35

want to start with Raging

Abaan: 37:35

the Monkey Dory? Oh, sure,

Liam: 37:37

I have.

Abaan: 37:38

about Regible.

Liam: 37:38

Let's go to Guardi, bruh.

Abaan: 37:41

Alright, sure.

Liam: 37:44

I, I, I have played some with it, have you?

Abaan: 37:46

I've only got to, like, Therium on it, but it just seems completely nuts. Like, I think that deck is, like, I just don't, like, I don't see how Dragapult is ever beating it. The Cresselia and, like, any Bravery Charm on it, like, I'm just always killing your, like, the, your Corleas, essentially. Like, I, that just seems so good to me, like, and then whenever you put the six damage counters, like, that's not optional. You have to put them somewhere, and I'm just gonna crest them off, like, I don't know, it seems pretty good. Like, that matchup just seems great.

Liam: 38:13

Yes, Guardi is really good into Dragon Bolt. That's like the biggest selling point. It's like, it's good into Raging Bolt as well. I don't think it's good in Delugia, but I know there's a lot of people who cope that it's good in Delugia. And say like, oh dude, I'll just like E Hammer and then it'll all work out, maybe they'll fall flat. And it's sometimes true, but it's not always true. But I think the

Abaan: 38:35

if you're playing Lumi and Roxanne's, right, or Rosanne's, I keep saying Roxanne's, if you play Lumi and Rosanne's, like, I don't see how that E Hammer plan works at all. Like, I think that Lugia definitely smashes Garde. Like, you just, you hands them, they do the E Hammer, cope, kill the Archeops, and then you just Ulchwal, Lumi Rosanne's, get your Legacy Bright back, and then, then there's no answer. Like, then the game's, like, kind of over.

Liam: 39:00

Yeah.

Abaan: 39:00

You've already taken like four prizes on them, and you have their hands like going.

Liam: 39:04

yeah. I, Think Lugia's biggest weakness right now from the online list is, the consistency.

Abaan: 39:11

Yeah.

Liam: 39:11

have you, have you played at all with Raging Bolt? Yeah.

Abaan: 39:13

I haven't gotten a chance to. I mean, I just got back from LA a couple days ago, so I,

Liam: 39:17

yes, yeah, yeah, no, that's fair. That's also what I'd expect, but given the slander earlier, yeah, the deck is really insane. I'll give my two cents really quick. It is it hits turn 1 KO more consistently than any other deck I've like, pretty much ever seen. Like, Fusion Mew, Meloetta Roaring Moon, those, their turn 1 KO chances are like, it feels like half as consistent as Raging Bolt, Ogre Pawn. Literally every opening hand with Ogre Pawn, Raging Bolt is a turn 1 280. It's, it's like That deck is like the best running down deck I maybe have ever seen. It of course has the single prize weakness. It gets cooked into anything that doesn't give up two prizes every turn. Like Garde. Lugia to an extent. The Lugia matchup's close. You can of course hit their hit their Lugia instantly, but you really struggle into the Chinchino. It's good to, it's good to Dragon Bolt.

Abaan: 40:10

to gimp them? To gimp Lugia more consistently? Like, you try to always kill

Liam: 40:15

Yes. I think, I think those are. Those make sense, they obviously hit the consistency a little bit but those did really well, er, not really well, but I think those were in the best placing Ogre Fawn list from an online last night, which was like 200 players and it went like 7 1 or something, and there were, there were three catchers in the list, so I think, I think people are kind of leaning towards that, because I guess you're going to commit to the gimmick, right? And the gusts are important. Yeah? Yeah.

Abaan: 40:46

Ogre Pawn list feels like everything I wanted out of Turbo Lost Box. Like, I wanted Turbo Lost Box, like, back in the day, to always hit my Dragonite and hit for 250, like, no matter what. Back when 250 was, like, actual damage. Like That's that's how it's lit. I wanna I wanna try that now.

Liam: 41:01

It feels a little bit worse than Turbo Lost, because you don't have any single prize attackers. Like, not a

Abaan: 41:07

Yeah, obviously, because like, in terms of Lost Box, the best part about hitting the Dragonite

Liam: 41:10

play the Sandy Shocks,

Abaan: 41:11

could just like, save a life after and like, clean up everything. Oh, the one that does

Liam: 41:14

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you didn't have to take, like, zero hundreds. Sorry? Which one?

Abaan: 41:20

Oh, the Sandy Shox that does 90 is just so bad. There's just no way people are playing that, right? Heh heh heh.

Liam: 41:27

I get it. I think the deck feels terrible. It feels terrible to lose with when you lose, because you only lose to like a single prize attacker, and they're like, you know, they shove the Radzard, and you're like, I guess I have to kill this with my Raging Bolt, and then they go, you know, recover the Radzard, hit again, like, like, lose. Like, there's literally nothing for you to do, except just like swing. And wanting to be able to do something different, I get, but I agree. It doesn't actually work. There's no reason to play it if it doesn't actually

Abaan: 41:57

you play Bravery Charms or anything, or is the fact that it gets one shot by a Blood Moon or a Saloona relevant, or no? Like, it doesn't ever come down to

Liam: 42:04

Like, kind of, yeah. I would say it is relevant and some lists are playing Bravery Charm, but it doesn't really fix the issue, because the Blood Moon still takes two prizes on the bench Ogre Pawns, like, You have to bench all these two prize liabilities, and they're really soft. But the good news is, you take two prizes on the Blood Moon. Like, it's hard for them to come back. Or like, the Blood Moon is not a comeback mechanic if you're able to take two prizes turn one, and they have to keep giving up two prizes, right?

Abaan: 42:33

Yeah, of course, it never swings a trade like that, but if you wave in like a one prizer to like, take a knockout, then the Blood Moon just ends the game, and there's nothing you can

Liam: 42:41

Yeah, no, like, yes, but that's why the deck feels so bad to play, because if they're able to weave in a one prizer And like, stay on pace, you always lose. You just, you always lose. Like, even if you have Bravery Charms and you Bravery Charm the Raging Bolt, they always get the boss. Like, you just, you lose. You lose to a one

Abaan: 43:00

like the old like, when you're playing against Roaring Moon, right? We're like, when you used to play against Roaring Moon, it was like, or like, play as Roaring Moon, you just like, know, like, you know what's the outcome of the game is, like, five turns in advance, and you're just like, like, you're two bots just like, playing it out, and like, the winner is predetermined, because Roaring Moon never whiffed, but you never whiffed against Roaring Moon, because you just had to do 30 half the time, or like, it was so free, like, you just knew for a fact what was going to happen from like, start to finish. Could you ever play like a deck like that to a tournament? I couldn't, I

Liam: 43:28

And there's

Abaan: 43:28

like that, so that's just terrible.

Liam: 43:31

I'll be I, I, of course would love to say that I, I play the deck with the, the highest win rate. Right. I'll, I'll play what has the highest win rate. It's it, it's hard to do that though, and that's the kind of thing where like your biases can affect your valuation of the win rate. And I, and I know Jake is absolutely shameless about it, Jake Gerhardt, he is like, oh dude, it's actually the complexity factor of your deck swings your win win rate by 30% or something like that. I don't, I don't buy that. But I, I, I do know that like when, when you're looking at a deck and the win rate's like a hard, like 55% it's, it's hard to give it, give it a lot of credit because you never, you never go on, like, you, you never get like streaks I guess, or something like. The deck never feels good to play, right? It always feels like you're just running it down, you're winning like half the time, maybe a little over, and like it just feels mediocre. I, I did play Maridon to Vancouver so that was a pretty run it down deck but yeah, I mean it's, it's hard for most players, I think, to overcome those like biases. That's, that's why it's like generally,

Abaan: 44:37

I think the one

Liam: 44:38

generally those decks are not

Abaan: 44:39

I don't agree with it 30%. Like, I don't agree with the 30% for sure. That's wild. But I will say like not all 55% win rates are created equal. There's some 55% win rates that you'll play it 55% of the time and you'll win. And there's some where it's like, yeah, I mean obviously if my opponent doesn't do something like, like if my opponent executes perfectly, it's only 55%. But like in practice it's like genuinely like close to like a hundred percent. Like they'll never do it. Right. And then you'll just win the game. And so like I do,

Liam: 45:06

Yeah. Liam Williams, the goat, I, I think so as well. And that that's why most people avoid these kinds of decks if they're not playing it just for like, ease of play. But. I think it's a flaw, and Liam Williams, he's the GOAT, go check out his Twitter, he had a tweet about this, I think a few months ago, which was like, if you're trying to win an event, you should just be playing like, the 55 percent winrate deck that takes it raw. Because like, you need to you need to be ready in Day 2, like, you'll be really, really glad in Top 8, when you're sitting down from your opponent, that you have the extra 5%. As opposed to like, oh, I guess you know, as opposed to a deck where it's like 50 50, but you beat the bad players all the time, where like, you're sitting down at top 8, and you're like, I guess I'm probably not winning this one because my opponent probably knows how to play well. So like, I think if you're trying to perform in like a day 2 top 8 environment the, like, prioritizing

Abaan: 46:01

yeah, I mean, I literally just experienced that, right? Like, I'm playing

Liam: 46:05

like,

Abaan: 46:06

I just beat a bunch of, like, people who don't know what's going on against Pidget, or weren't prepared, and then in Top 8, I just Okay, he wasn't good either, but he was just playing the deck that just Runs you down and like there's nothing to do like bro. He was actually like shaking while he was just like completely owning me He was just like like primal turbo to Boss knock out your pidgeot. I was like, dude, how are you so nervous? Like you have like game on boy, like what is going on

Liam: 46:30

That's like the funniest thing, bro.

Abaan: 46:33

He knocked out

Liam: 46:33

I will say.

Abaan: 46:34

he knocked out my pidgeot. Oh I was gonna say like I prize double pidgeot game two and game one I prize two candy and he knocked out my pidgeot on three. I was like, wow, man I Why are you nervous? Like, you got me.

Liam: 46:46

That's so funny, bro. I, I will say, I, you know, I, I assume you know this as well, but I, I've been in this position before, and I've been nervous. The main reason that you're nervous is because you're conscious that the only way you lose at this point is that there's a judge looking over your shoulder, and if you draw an extra card, you lose the game, or something like that. Like, if you, if you muck it up with the cards. Then you, then you lose. And

Abaan: 47:12

I guess that's fair. I guess that's fair. It is like, it is kind of stressful having a judge, like, next to you. I get

Liam: 47:16

nerve wracking. Yeah, I like, it's kind of like it's like the nerves kind of build up on themselves, because like, your hands are shaking, and then you look at your hands and they're shaking, and you know if you like muck up with the cards, you know, you might get a game loss or whatever, and you just like chuck your whole tournament, and you're in top eight. Like, yeah, it's, it kind of like builds on itself. But that is still really funny, if you have, like, game on board, and do it, like, shaking or whatever. That's pretty

Abaan: 47:43

Yeah, yeah, I get it. I, I personally, I like to say I don't feel too nervous, I just kind of, I'm executing, like, whatever the plan is. But I will say that I actually, now that you put it like that, it makes sense, because there's some games with picture control where it's like, I know for sure that I'm winning this game, like, I just have to do the thing, like, there's just no way I'm losing, right? But then having to find the actual line, like, without any rewinds, because I'm so used to, like, in my own testing, like, if I do something stupid, I just rewind, right? Like, it just fix it.

Liam: 48:10

Yeah.

Abaan: 48:10

so it is, I get it.

Liam: 48:12

Yeah, no, I, of course, I mean, I think most people strive to be, like, you know, be a machine, right? You just go in and execute, you have, like, no feelings toward the game, you just maximize winrate, maximize winrate, maximize winrate. But it's You know we're all human, right? At least most of us,

Abaan: 48:32

I don't think most

Liam: 48:32

exception being Tord.

Abaan: 48:34

I think like, I think people don't actually think about it like, like that. I think that's like, a very top player mindset. I have that mindset too. Like, oh, I'm supposed to like, go in there and execute and maximize winrate. But I actually think that most people are like, in their like, vibes. Like, oh, like, I wanna like, I'm gonna outplay him. Like, I'm gonna make some reads. I'm gonna do some crazy like, some crazy play that he never saw. I'm like, if I go in there and I just do the right thing over and over again, like, that's lit.

Liam: 48:57

Dude, that's so funny. That's actually, yeah, that's like one thing that like ticks me off the most. Or like, it doesn't tick me off, of course, I don't know if that can be like that. But, it's like one of my pet peeves, it's like when people talk about like, outplaying their opponents. Like, I don't, like, like outplays are like, When people say they outplayed their opponent, it sounds like it's something they did, when it's really just their opponent mucking up. Like, they're like, dude, I went into the, like, I went into the Radzard on two, and this guy had, like, boss KO for a game, but he hit into the Radzard. Ooh, outplayed! Like, I mean, like, in some sense, yes, but, like, it just seems weird to, like, prop yourself up when you're playing, like, as expected, almost. And then, your opponent just like mucks it up, like, and, and like, especially when people talk about outplaying in preparation, because you don't even know what your opponent's going to do yet, like,

Abaan: 49:47

Dude, I think the one deck where you can actually outplay people unironically kind of is Pidget because there's multiple ways to look at their hand and like decide what like when to look at their hand and stuff and like like there's actually some like Like disparity of information like game going on. There's no other deck that has that at all So I don't know how people are outplaying each other with like in their like Zard mirror man Like there's no outplaying like you can just see the board and like all the

Liam: 50:09

But, but like How does

Abaan: 50:11

outplay I did was my

Liam: 50:12

does looking at their hand give you, like, outplay potential?

Abaan: 50:16

Oh, I mean, it's not outplay, but it's more just that, like, you, I know, like, what's, like, what they could do, and so, like, I think most of the time, you have to, like, base it on percentages, but, like, when you can see their hand, like, so clearly, you can actually, like, know exactly what can happen, right? So, I guess it's not outplay, but it's, like,

Liam: 50:33

Yeah, yeah,

Abaan: 50:35

and when you can actually see their hand, you're, like, playing.

Liam: 50:39

yes. Like, I get that to an extent, right? Like I've recently gotten into online poker, and, and, like, there is, like, some sense of outplaying when, like, You, you've seen their hands, so you can kind of count on what they're going to do, because you like, read into how far they're thinking rationally, and you like, go one step beyond, and there's not like, a clear play, or like, a clear best play, but kind of like what Nick Moffat was saying, but like, somewhat like a range of plays, depending on how far each player is like, taking the logic, right? And like, what's in each player's hand, and all that, and whatnot. But, I mean, yeah, I think it's, even

Abaan: 51:17

I think, I think the one outplay I did was I saw my opponent's hand, and I, with Luxray, and I,

Liam: 51:21

the cards you're dealt. And

Abaan: 51:28

grab the Turo right away. Cause I was like, okay, he's gonna, he knows that, I know that he doesn't have Turo, so he knows that he doesn't have Turo, so he's gonna wait. And it was at Control Zard, he had, like, two pennies at a Turo. And he's gonna wait to grab it, and he's trying to build up his, like, board beforehand, and one Turo was already gone. And I just ripped the Iono, and then Luxrayed again, and caught a Turo. And then, after that, he made a huge mistake. He like, used his last penny and tried Eleki, and I just Eiriked and got the last turn when he scooped on the spot. But, so that part was like, really grief. But the point was like, him thinking like, I'm not gonna Iono, cause I see his hand, and I wanna like, maybe get rid of like, this other card. And I'm just like, oh, I'm gonna rip the Iono right now, and maybe catch him in this like, small window. I I I don't know if that's an outplay, cause like, I feel like if you're good at the game, it's just obvious. Like, that's the line.

Liam: 52:09

well, like, like, like, what is, like, the outplay there? Like, like, like, you, like, played better than your opponent there? Like, Especially with that, like I, I think your opponent's basically just like playing the best they can. If they don't, they're just mucking it up and like, you can say like, you outplay, you outplayed if they mucked it up, but like it, it, it

Abaan: 52:27

Yeah, most outplaying is by default. You're playing and they're just throwing, and you're just, like, outplaying them, because you're playing reasonably, and, like, they're just playing bad. Like, that's most outplaying. I agree with you.

Liam: 52:39

Yeah, yeah. But, but even if they're, if they're playing optimally and then you like beat them anyway, that just means you like drew better cards. Like all you can do is play, play your best and if you play, if you play as well as you can and they play as well as they can. And, you happen to win? Is that like, outplaying, or is that like, you just drew better? Like, it's either that, or somebody threw, right?

Abaan: 53:03

Yeah, I, it's, I think the one situation is where it's, like, they had very reasonable moves, but it wasn't optimal. Like, they didn't play optimally, and, like, you can say, like, sure, like, then, like, they're just playing bad, right? But, it's, like You can see like someone go through like a normal train of thought and then not like do the optimal play and then lose And be like I outplayed them cuz like yeah, they could have done this optimal line But they kind of they did something reasonable and like that wasn't good enough.

Liam: 53:29

yeah, yeah, I mean like, I think ultimately outplaying is kind of just like, Taking responsibility for your opponent's muckups, but, you know, there's definitely some, some situations where, where that's not like the craziest thing in the world, and you can kind of try to like, induce a muckup, and like, you know, they walk into it, and you're like, damn, I outplayed them, right but, yeah, I

Abaan: 53:50

I also just think that

Liam: 53:51

way heavily

Abaan: 53:51

like a optimal Pokemon line Even if there's an optimal Pokemon line, actually seeing it in game is sometimes very difficult. The stuff that you see in the sim, I feel like in your own comfort of seeing the prize cards, seeing everything so clearly, it's not always the same as like, in the moment, you're actually playing with physical cards, looking at them. And like, sometimes like, when people use outplay, what they just mean is like, wow, I can't even believe I played that optimally. And like, honestly, I think that's like a pretty respectable thing, like, oh wow, I just played that situation optimally, like, I can't believe I found it in the moment. And like, I think it's fine to use the term like that. It doesn't have to mean like, I

Liam: 54:29

yeah, yeah, right, I

Abaan: 54:30

astronomically

Liam: 54:30

I know I've used the term before, like when I like, You know, I have, I, I, I just play like insane. I play out of my mind, right? And I'm like, damn. I, like, I just, I just went crazy. There's like, there's no hope for this guy, no matter how well he played. I, like, I, I did everything right, and this, like, probably losing position, I it turned to a win, right? Or like, a losing position if you don't play perfect, and and you turn into a win. Yeah, so I, I think that makes sense.

Abaan: 54:58

Oh, I didn't even notice, by the way, unrelated, I saw the mat in the background, that's my, that's the mat I use for all my tournaments. It's the one like, slightly to your left. Big

Liam: 55:08

The Nats mat?

Abaan: 55:10

Yeah, 2016.

Liam: 55:11

Yeah, it's the same, right?

Abaan: 55:13

Yeah, litmat. Bestmat. It was so funny, my first tournament back, I was playing Fusion Strike, and the guy said, oh, you bought like a mat that's like, Fusion Strike themed. I was like, what are you talking about? And there's actually like, Genesect, Meloetta, and Mew, like, across the middle. I didn't even peep that until he brought it up.

Brent: 55:28

Dude, Liam's mat is the flex, it says Champion in the bottom corner.

Liam: 55:33

Indeed.

Abaan: 55:34

Oh, you won a Nats?

Brent: 55:36

Dude, he's the, he's, he's the, let's be clear, cause I'm the dad so I gotta say

Liam: 55:40

Oh, yes,

Brent: 55:41

is the reigning US National Champion.

Liam: 55:45

Yeah, they replaced it with ICs the year after.

Brent: 55:48

No one has ever been a US National Champion. Liam is the US National Champion today. No one has ever replaced him. He will never be replaced. He's the US National Champion.

Liam: 56:00

Running on eight years straight, bro. Yeah,

Brent: 56:05

the US National Champion for longer.

Abaan: 56:07

I feel like I don't know your lore at all. Cause like, I, all I, like, every, I feel like every month I find out a new detail about Liam. I was like, oh, you topped me at Allerington last year? That's pretty cool. Oh, you won Worlds? I didn't even know that until I saw you in the hotel in Vancouver. So like, I need like, someone can send me like a PDF or something of all the Liam accomplishments so I can, I can be familiar. Ha ha

Brent: 56:30

hit, hit like you know, scored like 15 points in a very competitive AAU game. He can shoot the lights out. He's a hooper.

Abaan: 56:38

ha! I didn't, wow, that's crazy. Like, every, like, every day I learn something new about Liam. 2024 World Champion Finalist, or sorry, World Championship Finalist I'm the I'm gonna win. Like, so, that one's locked up. But you can be you can be second.

Liam: 56:53

Bro, you already saw, I already called first, bro. I already called first.

Abaan: 56:58

I was playing a match at the time. You can't call dibs while I'm in game, bro. That's crazy. I was in Top 8 when you, like, wrote that down, bro.

Liam: 57:06

Yeah, bro. Momentum League though, right? So maybe if I show up at NAIC, I'll lock up Worlds, right?

Abaan: 57:12

Oh, yeah, true. If you win the NAIC, you're gonna get Worlds too. It is a momentum league. That's true.

Liam: 57:17

Momentum League! Alright.

Brent: 57:20

Alright guys, we've been going for an hour. Any, any last thoughts to talk about? So next,

Liam: 57:26

Yeah.

Brent: 57:26

yeah, but, but we have one more week, I guess, before like, we really gotta break it down. So I think next week is just like, an hour of Dragapult. Until the end of time.

Liam: 57:37

Dude, I'll have attended

Abaan: 57:38

one of us should shell out for the Tord Recklev. Yeah, exactly.

Liam: 57:41

did, yes

Abaan: 57:42

And then we can talk about it. You're in? You signed up?

Liam: 57:45

yeah. Tord is my king, bro. Tord is my king. I, I genuinely, it's, it's honestly insane. He's literally going to defy Dragapultless for NAIC, like, single handedly, off this Masterclass. Yeah. I think

Abaan: 57:58

I actually think it's plus EV to buy the like, it has to be. Like, you're more likely to cash significantly by paying for the class. So, like, I can't even fault anyone who doesn't. Like, if you're paying for a Masterclass from some random guy, I don't respect it, but Tord? It's different, it's different.

Liam: 58:13

Yeah, dude, I've, now shelled out money for, for all the Tord Masterclasses. I, dude, like, this is literally the greatest of all time, giving you Gospel. I, I will, I will take it. No shame. Yeah,

Brent: 58:28

mean, you're going to save all this money by him telling you, hey, don't waste time with that Xatu. You don't got to buy those Xatu

Liam: 58:34

the, the humorous on some guys

Brent: 58:35

back in.

Liam: 58:36

Honestly crazy. Like, I told Jake that I did the Tord Masterclass or whatever, and he's like, Bro, why would you do that? It's such a waste of money. But like, this is like, literally Tord. He's like, you know, he's giving you his speech on how to play all the Charizard's matchups, which he took to like an EUIC win. Like, this guy is like, ten times better than like, basically every other player. I don't know why you would feel like, Anyone would ever feel like they're, like, too good to take the masterclass or something? Like, of course if you don't have the money for it, that's like, you know, what can you do, right? But there's not a single person out there who's, like, too good not to listen to Tord give his opinions. He has, like, the best opinions in the game. That's why he

Abaan: 59:16

Okay, my the only thing I want to say about that is like, I would never take a class like that, not because I think I'm so good that I don't need it, it's just it's just like, it's too like, I just don't want to shell the money out, like, seeing my the money leave my account to tell someone else how to play this game that I play obsessively, like, I get he probably is better than me, but like, I feel like I can learn it on my own. But I I actually think that Tord is one of the few people where it's worth it. Like, it actually is worth it. If you did shell out the money for Tord, it makes sense. But like, are you telling me that Cal Connors Storlax Masterclass is worth however much it costs? No way.

Brent: 59:50

I mean, here's the trick, Liam. Tord's ten times better than everyone else, but Jake Earhart will charge you one twelfth. So think about that. One twelfth. That's value. The Jake Earhart class, man. Yeah, that sounds about right. Alright, guys, we'll be back next week. Jon Palser, our outro. You can tell these guys have got a lot to say. You're going to want to tune in next week because it's always, always, and more at the end of the pod.