Liam: 0:04

Hello everybody, welcome back to the Trashlandish podcast. Attendance is at 66%. It is me, Liam, and Cameron Shenoy. Um, we are the only podcast about the trading card game. Make sure you leave a five star review, we will read it on the pod. And we want to give a shout out to our sponsor, Dragonshield. They have the best sleeves. Uh, I'm definitely going to be using them at Indie, like I use them for every tournament. Uh. Yeah, Dragon Shield's amazing. Go use their sleeves. Uh, today, I think we're just gonna be talking about two main things, which is one, the insane yapfest on my Twitter about, like, the world's invite structure, and two, preparing for Indie. It's in, like, a few days. And while, yes, I spend a good chunk of time on Twitter, I also spend a lot of time preparing. So, I will tell you how that's going. Um

Cam: 0:56

nice. Uh, unfortunately we lost Caden due to, uh, university things. Uh, your dad's on a work call and Mike is with his new child. So, congratulations to him. But, yes, there's been a lot of discussion about the world invite structure by not just yourself, I mean, you love to get in any discussion going on in Twitter, Um, but a lot of people going on. Um What is, what is your opinion, Liam? Let's, let's, uh, give you the runway here. Heh

Liam: 1:29

I think we should make it harder, uh, like, this was really all my tweets said, I don't know why people took such immense offense to it, because then when I, like, actually ask them about it, they're like, oh, I guess, I guess that does make a little bit of sense, which is, one, we should make volume invites harder. With the current system, as long as you go to Locals every weekend, and you attend three ICs, you basically never have to have, uh, like, a good result. You can top, like, 1024 ICs, and, like, top 512 Regionals, go to Locals every weekend, and you have your invite. Um, I think that shouldn't be an invite. I think you should have to do well at, like, a regional. Um, and that's probably placing in, like, the top 32. I think you should, you should have a top 32 finish at some point at a regional if you want to go to Worlds. Um, I, I think that's a fair bar, and I'm, I'm open to hearing that, uh, where that bar is for discussion. Um, but I think requiring good performances at regionals makes a lot of sense for the invite. Um, so, yeah. Yeah, that's, that's really my only requirement for, uh, like, an invite. I think you should have to do well at regionals, uh, like, skipping this requirement by either doing a ton of locals, and locals somehow getting you your invite, or just volume farming. Um, I think all of those are bad for, uh, achieving an invite. And look, my father has joined. We are back at 100 percent attendance.

Brent: 2:48

Let's go!

Liam: 2:53

How about you,

Cam: 2:53

and, oh, what is my opinion on the matter? I, I think it's fine whatever it ends up being, the invite structure. I do think Pokemon has the, probably the easiest worlds or qualification method of any card game, um, now. You know that. It allows for the game to grow, it allows for a lot of people to trace a dream, and try to succeed in something, and a lot of people can have a run, and that is You know, is, you know, creates storylines in itself. We can look to Last Worlds where we were looking at three of the greatest players of all time, and Vance Kelly came along and said thank you very much, um, and he's not, you know, probably before that Worlds run was not perennially thought of as a top player, um, so you just allow people to create these runs and create these narratives when you include more people, um, And that's why the game is getting bigger and bigger and bigger at every event. Um, I do think there are some things that can be adjusted. I think locals should not count for stipend. Um, I think that should be a major event thing. You can have some amount of locals, maybe it's reduced. Um, I wouldn't necessarily be against that. But, uh, to remove it completely would be kind of bad for the game, I think,

Liam: 4:29

I disagree. I guess we'll get into it, right? That's why we have a podcast. Um,

Cam: 4:34

So why do you disagree? Like, what do you disagree with that? That it's bad for

Liam: 4:37

I disagree with a few things. I disagree with one, that worlds should be, like, effectively an open event. Like, you made the argument that the more people attend The better the event is, because we create better storylines. I think storylines are great. I think they should happen at the regional level, the IC level, something before Worlds. I think Worlds, we already have a bar, and I think that's what makes Worlds such an amazing event for so many players, is when they get this accomplishment, they get to enter a room with a bunch of elite players, and it's just elite players there, right? Like, they basically join this, like, elite club, where it's top tier players, and every single round, they're going to be playing some of the best Pokémon that's ever played, right? I think that's what makes Worlds so special, like, not just because it's a large event, we have large events all the time, it's because, um, because of that performance requirement and because there's such good Pokémon that gets played there. And I think the level of Pokémon that gets played at Worlds increases as you increase that bar, and I think making it more exclusive doesn't really hurt, um, doesn't, like, really hurt what happens at Worlds. I don't think you need, like, these storylines. I think what you want is, like, Round 1 stream, it's Tord vs. Rowan. Round 2 stream, it's Azul vs. Cheren. Uh, Round 3 stream, it's Isaiah vs., you know, Brett. Like, you get to watch the best Pokémon unfold there, and I think that's what makes Worlds so special. Not, um, not like, the, the storylines or whatever. Um, not like, you know, unknown players basically coming in And like, destroying the event or whatever. I think that's what makes Regionals and IC special, and those two should be split apart. Um, on Locals, I do agree that eliminating Locals would be bad for the game, but I don't think it would eliminate Locals if you disconnected it from Championship points. and the reason for this is I think, like, you know, many years ago, we had Locals and they weren't a large part of Invite Chasing. It was more about how you did at Regionals, And Locals then were really, really fun, because when people went, they went because they got out of bed and they said, I want to play some Pokemon today, as opposed to going and they're like, Man, I really have to drive two hours to the middle of nowhere because I need these 50 championship points because Pokemon said I would get an invite if I did that this morning. And when people go to have fun, the local experience gets better. Cam, what do you think about that?

Cam: 6:52

No, no, Brent, go on. It looks like you had something to say, Brent.

Brent: 6:56

So, what, I mean, I think, so when you talk about locals, here's, here's I think the trick in my mind, right? Like,

Cam: 7:03

locals, I

Brent: 7:04

um, I mean the thing I've always said, Liam, is, uh, what people want in locals is stacked locals. Like, and, and I recognize there's a tension, right? I mean, Kaya says, oh man, there's a 50 person best of three league challenge, holy shit, we're in for it tonight, right? Like, okay,

Liam: 7:23

People would love that if they weren't going for 15 championship points to get in and get out and try to get their world's invite. If they were going because they wanted to play Pokemon, they hear 5 rounds best of 3 and, you know, they celebrate. And, like, that makes for a better local

Brent: 7:37

No, but, but, so, so, I recognize, like, in Masters, there's, there's that tension, right? 50 person best of three league challenge, holy cow, we're in for it. But, like, the, um, And, you know, I recognize you could do this by just treating different divisions differently, but, like, I always said, one of the things they want is, um, when you were a junior, they want you to, like, show up at League Challenges, because the worst thing that can happen for juniors is, and dude, Kim, you tell me how much this happens for you guys at Tabletop, like, One junior shows up, and he gets paired into a bunch of masters. Like, that sucks, man. Like, that's super, super lame. And I know if, when I took Liam to play his first Pokemon game, they were like, you're just thrown in the masters pool, because we don't got enough juniors here, so like, let's go. And he had lost to some 30 year old dude, I'd have been like, Pokemon sucks, we're never coming back, it's been real. you know, and like, one of the things I've always said is, I mean, there's a lot of good juniors out there, there's a lot of good seniors out there, but when like, uh, an 11 year old shows up and gets smoked by an 11 year old, their parents are like, get good, we're coming back next week. When they show up, and they get smoked by a 35 year old they're like, this game sucks, we out. You know? and that's how the kid feels too, right? The kid is like, damn, I gotta get good. But like, when he gets smoked by a guy. with a beard, he's like, I never had a chance, dawg. So So, for juniors and seniors, locals is about like, they gotta drive a shit ton of attendants, like they gotta get the people, you know? And, that's the thing.

Cam: 9:29

it varies depending on where you are in the country, where you are in the world, this, that, and the other. But it does create Just grow the game. We do have a lot of young kids in our area, in Seattle. and actually they're the, they're like the kid who is like 10 years old taking notes and then the 35 year old's like, oh, okay, this person's actually trying. And then they get smoked by the 10 year old. And the 10 year old is getting top 8's at regionals. So um. And I think that's helped our community grow, is, the amount of kids that can come in, and it's very hard to sell a parent on, Hey, just start traveling out of state for these major events costing thousands of dollars. Um, yeah. And, you know, as you guys are a Pokemon parent, and a kid who has grown up playing the game with other Pokemon parents, like, that's a big endeavor, and allowing them to play at the local level, see what can go on there first, helps people get some And, You know, you know, helps kind of drive them towards the regional and the major event, uh, major events. But you have to have something at the local level. You can't erase it at all. Uh, you can make it count less, I can understand that, you can give it a less BFL, maybe 4, I've seen some people discuss that. Um, I don't know if you can eliminate it that much, it's nice to have

Brent: 10:58

I mean the tension is, at least in juniors and seniors, Pokemon wants the juniors to go. Like when you decrease the BFL, you're saying, yeah, you don't gotta go. And like, Pokemon wants you to go. Cause like, we need the juniors to be there. Cause like, as you said, sometimes there's the juniors that, like, they're, you know, they get paired into the master pool and they're smoking them. But like, the real thing I worry is, when you're trying to grow the game, if a kid shows up who's never played before, and the only people he has to play with are 35 year olds, that's a bad experience. What they need is, that kid that can smoke the 35 year old to show up, and he be like, I could be that guy. Cause he never looks at the 35 year old and says, I could be that guy. You know?

Cam: 11:39

Yep, that's true.

Liam: 11:40

I, I agree

Brent: 11:41

they need, they need the young junior to be there, the experienced junior to be there, and the new junior to be there. So it's tough because Pokemon wants, I mean, Pokemon wants Azul to show up at the League Challenges. Alright, it's hype for

Liam: 11:55

no,

Brent: 11:56

it's hype for the game when Azul shows up at the League Challenges, you know?

Cam: 12:00

I guess so.

Liam: 12:03

I've agreed with all of that, if you read my threads, I've been talking about how you actually drive that, and what I say drives that is when a kid shows up to a lead challenge for the first time. He doesn't walk away with, hey kid, you got 15 championship points, if you get 600, you're qualified for Worlds, or whatever the qual is. Instead, if he walks away with a ton of prizing, he gets packs, he gets promos, whatever, all that junk, that's what probably makes the kid come back. I, I think that's a much better way to draw people into Locals than with, like, here's some championship points,

Brent: 12:34

That, that, that

Liam: 12:35

it gets entered into the

Brent: 12:36

that is definitely true, that is definitely true. And, and I suspect even when you were that guy as a junior, like, Good prizing, man. I mean, there's no question, that was a big part of like I think, I think the first, uh, uh, like league challenge Liam went to, he was like, hold up, we get free packs? Hold, hold up! We get free packs? We, we doing this all day! There's a, you know, I found a new mission in life, go to every one of these things. So in that respect, that's certainly true.

Cam: 13:12

I think locals, it is, creates an unfair advantage in some situations. I think it's also their ability, it's their way of trying to make it not such a, uh, a money fest. Because it is very expensive to go to these events, and I think they want to, you know, Lower the barrier of entry a little bit by having locals, so you can say, Hey, I can go to some locals around me, and then kind of mitigate having to travel.

Liam: 13:41

I think that's fine, like, the premise of my solution is drop the BFLs for regionals tonight. See ya. Remove locals, and then drop the amount of championship points needed to 210, which is the amount you need off of non locals events anyway. Now, I gave a higher number because I think the bar should be raised, but like, the premise of my solution is dropping points along with locals. It's not about, like, you lose locals ability to supplement your invite, and you just have to go to every event now. It's about dropping the amount of points required along with locals. Like, that's the issue that locals have, which is, like, the current expectation is basically that you will attend a ton of locals. If you don't get, like, an auto invite, or win multiple regionals, or something like that, like, if you top eight five regionals right now, you don't have your invite. And I, I think it's, like, the optimal system, that's not true. Somebody who top eights five regionals should have their invite. Like, regardless of how many locals they've showed up to.

Brent: 14:43

Yeah, alright, so I made a list of questions to talk about based on the tweets and the craziness, and I missed the first two and a half minutes of this pod, was it amazing?

Cam: 14:55

It was. It was.

Liam: 14:56

Yeah! I did the intro for the first time.

Brent: 14:59

Really,

Cam: 15:00

It was him, it was him sweating it out for a little bit trying to figure out his, uh, how to do the

Brent: 15:04

Really? Oh

Cam: 15:06

Going to go get a

Brent: 15:07

I'm looking forward to going on a list of the pod, it sounds awesome. Um, I like, so! As you guys know, as PokeParent, like, so much of my nonsense is wound up in like the junior and senior experience. I like the idea of, um, I liked Mike's idea of unlimited signups for kids at regionals. Which I recognize throws a massive wrench into things.

Liam: 15:32

No, no, it doesn't, and that's why I think it's such a good idea. Like, guaranteeing all the kids come in, instead of EYC Masters being, what, like, 1900 or something, right? Um, instead it's like 1850. Like, it's like the same thing in

Brent: 15:48

no, no, it'd be like, it'd be like 1, 400. I think there's, I think there's a lot of pent up kid uh, junior demand.

Liam: 15:54

dude, I I do not think there's, you think there's 500 juniors trying to sign up?

Brent: 15:59

I think, I think, I think they deliberately are making sure there's not day twos, like, at so many of these tournaments, when, like that obviously is a thing,

Liam: 16:08

I think that's true, but like, there's like, multiple regionals that have like, missed? the 226,

Brent: 16:15

Yeah,

Liam: 16:15

to my knowledge. like, I don't think, there's like, 500.

Brent: 16:19

I don't know, I felt like, I felt like

Liam: 16:20

four times the demand, basically.

Brent: 16:22

I don't know, I felt like EUIC. there was a band.

Liam: 16:24

I'm not, I'm not super familiar with. Um,

Cam: 16:27

be surprised, I would, like, it is kind of nice for them to have to, like look at the younger divisions and be like, Yeah, that'll just be like a top 8 for day 2 and kind of just Put, uh, minimal

Brent: 16:38

Exactly, that's what I was about to say, they're like we just need three judges for this, we're gonna make it work, you know,

Liam: 16:42

Dude, it's, it's also nice, like

Cam: 16:44

yeah.

Liam: 16:45

As a kid, I can't imagine telling, like, an 8 year old to play, like, 9 rounds day 1, 5 rounds day 2, top 8, like, like,

Cam: 16:52

how many people

Brent: 16:53

Oh, no, dude, that's, Liam, that

Liam: 16:55

I I know you I I know you said that I'm, like, a high energy kid, but you're a high energy kid until you gotta play those extra two rounds,

Cam: 17:01

I've, I think, uh, but I think that would also better prepare them for the, it would make the difference not as drastic. I mean,

Liam: 17:10

yeah, prepare them for

Cam: 17:11

that long,

Liam: 17:11

and see yeah, that makes

Cam: 17:13

being able to play that long helps,

Liam: 17:15

That might be beneficial in that regard.

Brent: 17:17

I mean, you know, I recognize like one of the problems for juniors at Worlds. Or like, um, juniors And seniors, like, they've kind of fixed this a little bit with the IC format and stuff, but like, back in the day at like Nationals and the first NAICs and stuff like that, it, you know, it was like, all these juniors show up, and they play day one, and then they're done. Like, they play like six rounds, and it's Friday, it's like four o'clock, and you're like, okay, you're done for the weekend, great job.

Liam: 17:51

to the radio and

Brent: 17:52

They're like, are you serious? We just got here.

Liam: 17:55

do not have to pause to read stories. Bye.

Brent: 17:59

The

Liam: 17:59

better side

Brent: 18:00

kids came to play Pokemon, yo. like the first time they had, they had na that when they had that Nationals Day too, like that was, uh, that was what the people wanted because Juniors, juniors came to play.

Liam: 18:14

you remember, there was like that Nationals tournament, like, they had a second tournament on Saturday, after day one, that we played in. Um,

Brent: 18:23

Yeah. Well, and when they, and, and when they started having like, uh, I mean, I recognize that like the London Open kind of fixes this, right? Like the idea of, you know, we have a, we have made like, yeah, that last nationals, they had like two regionals, like one on Saturday, one on Sunday, because they just hadn't handed out enough invites and they were just raring to go, you know?

Liam: 18:43

Yeah.

Brent: 18:44

But, uh, um, yeah, like, I feel like there's something they could do where they structure more stuff for people to do that would, like, uh, you know, like, more big tournaments for spectators to walk into, like, side events are okay, but I, you know, I kind of wish there was

Liam: 19:01

Dude, they're, they're terrible, man. They're terrible.

Brent: 19:07

a lot of people who are not necessarily, like, the hardcore people that were sitting, like, hands on buzzers to register for NAIC. I mean, that's like, you're obviously hardcore when you do that. The casuals were not, like, setting their alarms, getting ready to wake up. Like, you know, we gotta get in! We gotta do this! Um I, wish we could figure out a way to, like, give them more of a real tournament experience that was, like, something in! between competing in the regionals and today's, like, eight man pods, you know?

Liam: 19:49

I, I wish we like, basically tiered tournaments more. This is, everybody's talked about this, but, like, Something between a local and a regional, so that there's like a big ish Pokemon event, but it's not so big that registration caps out, and people in the area, when they search like, Pokemon things to do, they see this event, they go to the event, and instead of being like, basically turned away, like they are right now, they can sign up for the event right there. That'd be like, so cool, and I know that's what we used to have, and like, it's just a much better system. Like, I mean, it obviously makes for a much more enjoyable experience, and I think it's a big part of growing the game as well.

Brent: 20:27

mean, I recognize, you know, we talk about it all the time, so I'm a broken record on this, but, like, that first DC Worlds that Liam went to, uh, if, if you would, if, you know, if Spectator badges were sold out, like, I don't know, we would just never have gotten into Pokemon. Like, the ability to, like, have random casuals wander in off the street and, like watch kids play Pokemon and learn how to play Pokemon, and Pokemon has made some great strides there. That, that whole, like, first Pokemon experience thing that they've set up at regionals and ICs now, it's, like, super good. Uh, um, I did not get to really see the one in London, and I think they had one in Japan, but I didn't really, uh, see that either. But, like, my impression, in London they had a whole, like, side convention center area where it was, like, Like, a conference hall where they're teaching kids to play Pokemon. I'm down with that. I love it.

Liam: 21:18

Yep. for

Cam: 21:24

um, when they came to visit me at EYC. They went to the play lab, they wanted to play, when we went to dinner afterwards. I mean, it's what grows the game, gets kids, people excited to have things like that, where it's just easy for them to learn the game, have things to take home with them. And that's important, that's an important part of it, I think.

Brent: 21:45

yeah. Well, and, and like, I think one of the crazy things about Pokemon, and maybe this is true of all card games, I assume it's more or less true of all card games, but maybe slightly less true for Magic or something, it's like, like one of the things that I think is, that almost gets lost is, like, kids coming into the game, they think like, getting a card is, Incredibly valuable, and like, hard, and, like, building a deck and having 60 cards is incredible!

Cam: 22:15

Mm hmm.

Brent: 22:16

And, and that like, that like, first Pokemon thing that Pokemon does now, where they're like, we will just give you a bunch of cards. Kids, kids are like, oh my god!

Cam: 22:24

Mm hmm.

Brent: 22:25

That's crazy! You know?

Liam: 22:27

Yeah. very

Brent: 22:36

I would never do it because I remember how traumatizing it was. like, Masters would like open packs at League Challenges and just be like, these cards are all crap, pshh, just throw the cards around, right? and and like, you know there's all these like new to the game players who are like, they have no supporters at all. They have like, like every card is, it's a stunning turn of events for them to get a card that is remotely playable, you know? It's crazy. Like, their frame of reference is just so different than, um, uh, people who, uh,

Liam: 23:09

Dude, that was one of the better things, too, about locals, like, 10 years ago, is like, not everybody had a competitive deck. Everybody has a competitive deck now. It's like, everybody. It's like, everybody. Like You cannot find somebody who's not bringing a deck that will run you down on turn two. Like, it's, Like, you know, ten years ago, like, everybody would bring their trade binders in. Their deck would be like 60 random cards that they pulled from like 10 packs. And like, you know, they would try to make their decks a little better by trading with each other. Like, everybody had these like terrible decks. And like,

Cam: 23:46

That's, that's crazy that you, that's crazy that you think that that's, that's like a good thing.

Liam: 23:51

That's

Cam: 23:52

I mean, if you're,

Liam: 23:53

Like, when you're getting into the game, everybody else is like, the same dex as you, and it makes the game so much cooler. The dex now are terrible. Like, you just get run down unless you bring a super competitive deck.

Cam: 24:05

I, well, I think that, I mean, it's, if you think about it, it pushes the, the top players to be even better if they want to stay on top. It really does. I mean, if you want to Be good at the game, like, you have to be playing all the time, because everyone has a good deck now, everyone knows how to play, like, maybe not perfectly, but they know the general strategy of the deck, um, and

Liam: 24:36

is terrible. It's like, single handedly, the netdecking era is like, maybe the worst thing to happen to this game. It is genuinely terrible how deck building has been completely lost as a skill. It is like, and everybody is just bringing the like, run it down decks, man, and

Brent: 24:57

You, you, you can't, you can't say, hey, you're the guy who, like, encouraged people to play towards 60, because that would encourage Liam to not do that, and that would ruin us. Ha Ha ha ha ha ha

Liam: 25:06

I mean like,

Brent: 25:07

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Liam: 25:08

yeah, it's just,

Cam: 25:11

Mr. Copy paste himself.

Liam: 25:13

mean it's optimal, there's a reason people do it.

Cam: 25:18

It's different when I do it!

Liam: 25:19

no, I mean like, I understand why people do it. But, like, the game would be healthier if the internet was gone. Like, if a limit,

Cam: 25:32

but we're way past that

Liam: 25:34

yeah, I know.

Cam: 25:35

let's stop talking about these existential, Hey, if this didn't exist the universe would be a much better

Liam: 25:40

yeah, I

Brent: 25:41

imagine how frequently Liam would go outside if he did not have, if the internet did not exist.

Cam: 25:45

That would be

Brent: 25:46

We would be outside right now, people! Like, the internet!

Liam: 25:51

Yeah, I mean, but, like, the whole point is we're still talking about solutions that are, like, Probably not ever gonna happen. Talk about how you know, maybe it would be better if Pokemon banned people from, um, you know, accessing Limit Lists somehow. Uh, you know, didn't publish the decklist, prevent everything from leaking out, like, just stuff, man.

Brent: 26:14

Dude, it would just, it would just increase Tord and Azul's advantage.

Liam: 26:18

I think that'd be great. I think that'd be great. That'd be great for the game. If Tor has more of an advantage. Yeah. What were you gonna say, Cam?

Cam: 26:30

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Brent: 26:36

uh, so, um, here's what I wanted to ask, Liam. Uh, so, so, I'm gonna set aside, like, what are Pokemon's goals? Which is like, hey, in the big scheme of things, selling out ICs, That's a business move. Selling out regionals? That's a business move. Like, stacked locals forcing people to go, like, compete at 50 person best of three league challenges? Like, dubs, dubs, dubs, dubs, dubs. Like, in the big scheme of things, I think we've heard more complaining in prior years from people who were top 16 grinding when there was a huge incentive to be a top 16 grinder. Right? Like, the Day 2 Pass was such a, like, Monster advantage to players. Um,

Liam: 27:22

see you again soon.

Brent: 27:30

from contributing to the world's invite, uh, uh, how many regionals do you have to top 32 at to get an invite?

Liam: 27:38

Um, all right. I, I'd probably, yeah. All right. If we're staying good finishes, I don't actually like forcing people to do like, well at ics, even though it is like the largest event. I don't, I, I don't like the, the idea of like, you know,'cause most people are only going to go to one ic. Um, when I see a year, and, you know, like, you have to get top top 32, top 64, whatever, at this event, it's like, pretty hard, because, you know, the game does have a lot of luck, like, every, every player has missed day two before, and like, if you get, if you miss day two, and you're basically just like, and you have zero chance of a world's invite, even if you got like, four top 32s, and like, top 16, earlier in the season, that, that, that doesn't make sense to me, I think, So, so ics I think should be weighted a little bit less heavily. So I, I, I group it in a little bit more with the regionals, but maybe you just bump like the placement up, like a 64 N IC is like a, a 32 or a 16 at a regional or something like that. Um, so I, I'd make the two pretty close together and then I think, I think I'd say like, you should top eight once. And top 16, or top, or probably top 8 and top 32 once in a season to get a World's End invite. Um, top 8 is a little bit high, but I think, I think having a world where you know everybody's been in like a 75 minute best of three situation before, um, is like, A pretty cool experience, and like, very different from, from somebody who's, you know, every single time they make Day 2, they go 3 3. Right, so, I think my personal bar would be Top 8 and a Top 32 at a Regionals. Um, and ICs would be like, bumping it up a little, like a 64, maybe 128 at an IC would be the equivalent of a 32 at a Regionals.

Brent: 29:30

So, so, I mean, I guess the question is are you saying you would put a, like you have to get a top 8 and a top 32, or, or is there a point scheme? Like, if I get, if I get 4 top 32s, does that count as a top 8.

Liam: 29:43

Yeah, I think I'd do that. I think I'd do like a BFL of like 3 or 4, and have like 3 top 32s maybe equal a top 8, so if you get 4 32s, or like 2 32s and a 16, or something like that, maybe you get a top 8. It's hard to say.

Cam: 30:00

It's hard to say, because then you also drive attendance to these random events in the middle of

Liam: 30:05

No, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely region lock. Um, if you're an NA player, and you're in a 20 person SPE in Antarctica, that was my specific example, you have to get 1st or 2nd place if you want your thing to be counted as a top 32. And it will be counted as a top 32. If you win, maybe top 16. Like,

Brent: 30:23

well, I, mean, and let's be clear, the logic you just articulated is Sam Chen's logic, where he's like, Well, I'm definitely going to Antarctica, because now everyone else is disincentivized from going to Antarctica. All I, have to do is get first or second, bitches. Here we go.

Liam: 30:39

Grrrr! I, like, the next step is hard region locking, but I think that's the worst thing for the game. Um, Azul was just talking about this on his stream.

Brent: 30:45

yeah, Pokemon doesn't want you to region lock it. We want Japanese players to come to our regionals. Like,

Liam: 30:50

Brent taught

Brent: 30:51

not region locked, right?

Cam: 30:53

so let's talk about this. Last Worlds, Day 2. Now, you want to talk about the most exclusive tournament, Worlds maybe is not the best bar, but Day 2. Worlds is maybe 200 of the best players A lot of, maybe half of them are top 16 players who automatically made Day 2. Do you know how many of those players went 0 4?

Liam: 31:17

probably a

Cam: 31:17

drop from the tournament, from a lot of them. And so you were just saying, like, these players, like, yes, they can be very good, they can have bad runs too, you should allow more people to get in. It creates, um, you know, and the great players will still make it to the top some way or another, and maybe not every single year, but, like, just to make it so, like, only these top 32 players can play Worlds, like, sure, that's, there is, you know There is merit in that, and you're seeing some of the best games played, but you eliminate a lot of people, you eliminate seeing rising stars as easily. I think you just, like,

Liam: 32:00

I think there's a separate circuit for that. There's every single event, except for Worlds. is an open event where we can see rising stars, whatever you want to see. And like, I don't know why people, it's because of the world, this world's mentality, and like, how attainable worlds is, that people don't see doing well at regionals as an incremental step. They see regionals as a vessel for worlds, which is why every time they get to 6 2, they ID for points, because they think, that's the best way to guarantee my world's invite, because you can get the rest off locals. They don't see regionals as an individual event that they're shooting for first at. It, like, it's just a vessel to worlds, and I think if you make worlds less, like, attainable, more people start treating regionals and ICs as, like, the event to go to to try and prove yourself at. As opposed to, like, basically throwing your entire season away to quota worlds and then trying to prove yourself there. Like, people will try to actually, actually do their best at regionals and ICs. And I think you get, you, you get those same storylines, and then at world you have a guarantee that you're

Cam: 33:11

I just don't think the idea is that It doesn't carry that much, it's not that deep, like, you're making, you're making an ID much deeper than it really is, that's just my opinion on this topic, like, you think, like, because someone IDs to get into day 2, all of a sudden you're not seeing the greatest Pokemon being played, all of a sudden these people are not trying to win, it's

Brent: 33:36

Yeah, I, yeah, I,

Liam: 33:37

they're not trying to win a regionals. That's literally the only, the only defense you have against, uh, to, to justify the ID at six two at a regional event right now is that you're not trying to top eight. That's the, that's the only defense. And

Cam: 33:51

been plenty of,

Liam: 33:52

if you're not trying to top eight.

Cam: 33:54

there've

Liam: 33:55

It's

Cam: 33:55

been plenty of people who

Liam: 33:56

well at the event, you're trying to lock up, like, points.

Cam: 33:59

There have been plenty of people who've made the run at six and gone Six oh or 5

Liam: 34:03

Kim, we both know that it's mathematically correct, like, the strategic decision if you're shooting for top 8, if you're trying to win the event, if you're trying to do well at the individual event, is to play at 6 2. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you're trying to lock up points for your Worlds invite. You're trying to lock up a day 2 so that you can get some points. It just makes no sense. I mean, it doesn't make no sense. We know why people are doing it, but we could change the incentive structure so that people, when they go to regionals, when they go to their local regionals, instead of treating it as like a best of four worlds, and like, we have to make worlds more attainable so that, like, however you do at this local regional, after you 6 2 1 ID, you can get an invite, they should be able to see regionals as, like, the event to try to do well at when they go to it. You mess with that, Cam?

Cam: 34:54

it's fine. I think you see that regardless of IDs or not in the ninth round, I think I don't think that just like speaks horribly, uh,

Liam: 35:02

Yeah, no, I I I

Cam: 35:03

to get to day two. And I think you, once again, it's just you take this very like this. the world needs to be black And white for you, and there's like, many reasons. It could be, someone's first regional. The amount of people that I played in Day 2 at Orlando, who were like, this is my first event, and I made Day 2, and I was like, that's That's awesome. And, sure, maybe it's not, it's not toward Reklev, and Grant Manley, and yourself, okay, like, sure, that maybe we're not seeing the greatest of the greats, like, only in Day 2 of a regional, but that's

Liam: 35:40

That's not, that's never been my goal. I've, I've always, like, literally this

Cam: 35:44

how many of those people do you think I D'd in? Like, probably one of them. And that's okay.

Liam: 35:50

I mean, you'd still see them, like, literally this entire podcast, I've said, regionals And, ICs are, I think, a great place for people, for, you know, like, up and coming players who had to have, like, a breakthrough performance. You have to have a breakthrough performance. I think that those are great places, but I think most people aren't even shooting for that breakthrough performance right now because they're sacrificing their season to go to Worlds.

Cam: 36:11

I think you're just making blanket statements on people on what you think their goals are, and that's just not the right thing

Liam: 36:16

You don't think that's true for most people?

Cam: 36:20

I just don't think you can throw blanket statements on people and you wonder why people get mad at you. It's because you're throwing blanket statements on them that don't apply to everyone, because everyone's

Liam: 36:28

Yeah, I mean, that, that, that,

Cam: 36:29

get that understanding when you're not 18 years old and you're a little

Brent: 36:32

Oh, that's tough, the ageism, the ageism! So, I I will, I will say, I think,

Liam: 36:39

can tell me where my analysis of, like, the incentive structure is wrong, but I I think it's a fair analysis of the incentive structure and what causes decisions, and I think the example of the 6. 2 ID is a fair example in seeing how the incentive structure affects decisions.

Brent: 36:54

so, I mean, so next year, Liam's gonna be a poor college student. And, uh, you know, it, like, it is interesting. I, I suspect, I mean, obviously, it's, it's easy for us to say, hey, guys that have never made Day 2 love to ID because, like, they just want to play a Day 2, right? And, and there's definitely some percentage of that, but I think we probably all agree, um, people that have never played a Day 2 are, generally speaking, the minority of Day 2 players. like, just cause by definition, right? In the, whole point. So, So, if you say, um, Like, most of the people in Day 2 are not, never played at Day 2 before, and, then I don't know if it's like half or something, but like, I would assume the majority of people at ID, it's not their first Day 2, like, So, so then the question is why Day ID? And like, one argument would be, they just, they just want to play it tomorrow. Uh, uh, you know, they're praying for a miracle run, or they like playing Pokemon a lot, and it's better to play Day 2 than not play Day 2. Um, a second reason would be, yeah, invite grinding, right? A third reason would be, like, they're on The edge of Top 16, and their stipend money, and they want to like, try to bank stipend money. And like, that's That's like some real money, right? And then also there's just like, you know,

Cam: 38:16

Getting top

Brent: 38:17

top 16, you get some money.

Cam: 38:19

real money.

Brent: 38:19

Yeah, so like, like, there's there's some, some financial incentives to, like, try to gank points. And, you know, you could, you could say, hey, we're gonna, you can, I don't think you can fix the top 32 money thing. Cause like Top 32 money. We love money. Um, the stipend thing, you probably can't fix that either, because I think the whole point is We're we're all on the same page of like, paying out stipends for locals, where the skill level of different locals is wildly different is, is like, a terrible thing, and nobody wants that. Even though Pokemon seems to love it, because

Liam: 38:56

I actually don't hate it. I think, I think travel awards from locals, because a lot of people in my mentions and my comments or whatever, were like talking about, you know. They basically can only go, afford to go to locals, and that's why they need to be able to get points, or like, an invite off of locals. So I think making that structure similar, where you create, like, a travel award system solely off of locals, to encourage people to go to locals, and then, you know, the, and then they're able to attend regionals and ICs, like, you know, with that travel award, makes sense. I,

Brent: 39:28

Liam's converting every League Cup to a 1k. Liam's converting every League Cup to a 1k, let's go.

Liam: 39:35

Like, I know in practice, it might not work out as well as I'd hope, but,

Cam: 39:41

might not,

Liam: 39:42

you know, I think the idea is at least, um, something we can aspire to,

Brent: 39:52

Yeah, I mean, like, I recognize the, the tension between saying let's have better prizing at Locals and, like, the inevitable, like, uh, predecessor to that, which is this, the entry fee for this League Cup is 45, is like, phew, boy, there's some tension there, you know?

Liam: 40:11

Yeah, no, Pokemon should handle some of that stuff, they should subsidize it.

Cam: 40:17

I mean, it's just also, it's Up to, I mean it's, there's a lot, this is a bigger than Pokemon discussion unfortunately, this is a lot of uh, economics and business owners and stuff like that. And that's coming from, I go to a store and I work at a store, your brother saw the prizing for that and it was pretty good.

Brent: 40:35

prizing's off the chain!

Liam: 40:36

Yeah.

Cam: 40:37

Heh, heh,

Brent: 40:39

Gaming, they haven't sponsored us yet, but, but, you know, we do have Kim on the pod.

Cam: 40:43

apparently Brian said He emailed you and you just never responded but, heh, heh,

Brent: 40:46

He emailed me?

Cam: 40:48

heh, yeah I, don't

Brent: 40:49

he emailed me. Ryan.

Cam: 40:54

Brian.

Brent: 40:58

Hm. I

Cam: 40:59

Not to, not to pause the

Brent: 41:01

Yeah, dude. Oh, hold up people. This is important stuff. There's, there's potential sponsors for the pod and we haven't acknowledged them. We're always looking for more people to shout out this side of the pod. you just send us, you know, send, send messages to our Twitter guys. It, it'd be happening. Um.

Cam: 41:19

So do you have, uh, much more opinion on, on world invites? I know, like, it's yes, make it harder, and I think there's a balance to it. I think you can make it harder. I think there are things you can do. Immediately remove locals from stipend. That's just too much Pokemon being played to matter for so much money. Um, but you

Brent: 41:38

wildly different levels of quality of various locals is the thing that ruins having locals count towards stipends.

Liam: 41:45

worlds!

Cam: 41:47

Um, that's

Liam: 41:49

Like, I don't know

Cam: 41:50

on to, moving on to Indie. Um, Liam, since you said you don't only just talk about Pokemon, which you were doing a lot of talking about Pokemon over the last week, you said you also play some Pokemon. So what have you been playing in the lead up to Indie?

Liam: 42:07

I'm playing a bit of Pidgeot. A bit of Zard. That's pretty much it. Um Chi. I don't, I don't like it. It's not a bad deck, but you put a lot on that turn tope barrel, like you have to find a lot. Sometimes it's prime catcher, sometimes it's just like an SER, but like you put a, you put a lot on a turn to barrel and I, I, I don't like it that much. Um, I, I think it's very easy to draw into a bad turn to a barrel, which just instantly lose because the, the deck, the deck is like. Weirdly linear, and, um, while containing like a lot of options. Um, because like, as soon as you fall behind in the prize trade, your only way to take some knockouts is with two prizers. Um, which makes it really awkward to come back sometimes. Um, and so, yeah, I don't like Tempow. I think that's one of the few decks that has a solid Zard matchup. And so that doesn't leave a lot of other options. One is, of course, play Zard, the other is play anti meta, and that's Pidgeot. Um, those are the two I'm looking towards right now.

Brent: 43:17

How about you, Cam? I

Cam: 43:18

um, I've been trying, I've been playing Zahrd as well. I've been playing mainly, um, a Lucky Zahrd, more of a control variant. Most of the time, recently picked up Liam's deck, uh, I think the last two days, it's pretty good. Uh, yeah, towards Zahrd, with the second Charmeleon, the second Charmeleon is really nice. It creates an interesting dynamic between control and, um And kind of toward Bibarel Zard, where Charmeleon is teched so hard, like it's so good against the Devolution Regieleki E replay, that it just forces, like, both decks are teched enough that it just creates a 50 50, like, we're just actually just gonna play a straight up, um, Zard mirror, as long as both players are good, um,

Liam: 44:12

Zardmir really quick? Because Aban says it's 50 50, I just heard you say it's 50 50, but I imagine once you start going straight up, you don't have options like the Babarrel, you don't have options like the Primecatcher, like, it seems to me like you're just at a massive disadvantage.

Cam: 44:26

And you definitely are, and you're, and I would say that the, after playing it yesterday, that the, the Barrel version, the straight up version is probably slightly favored, but it's close, and you do have to know how to play the matchup against it, like, you cannot make any mistakes,

Liam: 44:42

Yeah.

Cam: 44:43

um, and maybe it's because it's something that our group specifically has practiced a lot, like, uh, just like the Ancient Box matchup, I don't think everyone is as familiar with it. Ancient Box, like, has practiced the Ancient Box matchup as much as us because of me and me playing it and you playing it with Vinny and things like that. So I think that's another matchup that, like, not everyone is very well versed in. Um, and that's just two very different variations. There's a bunch of variations in between. Um, Kaiwen's list is okay. Um, I just, I just feel like you'd rather be one or the other, and I think Liam would probably agree with that. Um, Chen Pao is pretty good. I think Chen Pao has the ability to run N'Zard off the floor. Um, the Sylene is pretty good. Um, outside of that, Ancient Box is kind of the Counter to the counter. It beats a lot of other decks that aren't Zard, it beats Chen Pao, it beats Future Hands in my opinion, it beats Giratina and any Lost Box variant. I think that, you know, Tina is the counter to Zard, but it doesn't have pretty, like, good matchups anywhere else, it doesn't feel like. Um, and so I'm kind of between Ancient Box, Chen Pao, and Zard. I'd probably play something close to Liam's Zard, um, if I did, but Chen Pao An Ancient Box, um, still pretty good. Gardi, um, I want to like the deck, it's just not quite good enough. It can win against Zard sometimes, it just feels like, um,

Liam: 46:32

The draw engine is much worse, it feels way worse.

Cam: 46:36

it's slower getting going, um, you're kind of, it puts more pressure on your, your setup to be very good, um, as the loss of the level ball really hurts the deck, um, so, until that, until that deck gets a way to search how it clearly is. More effectively, I think that deck will have an issue, even though it can be good when it gets set up. Um, Charizard, um, just kind of puts on too much pressure, um, especially if they know to save the vacuum and they know the matchup a little bit. Um, you know, otherwise, you know, I think there, you know, you could play, there are things that you could play that are interesting that I haven't quite seen. If you haven't tried yet, I think that Lost Box, um, non Tina Lost Box is kind of interesting. I think there are ways that you can create the deck to build. Uh, to beat certain things. I think, um, the reason I don't like Lost Box is because I like Ancient Box and I think Ancient Box takes a really good, um, Lost Box matchup.

Liam: 47:52

When you say a lost box, you're like, Victor Ong's list, yeah,

Cam: 47:56

yeah, something along those lines. I think Hunter Butler, you know, he got, he bubbled out a 10th with, uh, with a different kind of list. I think Pedro. You got top 16 with the list at UIC, so I think there's, I'm not sure they're all the same, um, and they all have their kind of slightly similar but slightly different answers to the same things, but the issue is Um, I don't know, Fluttermane. It loses to Fluttermane and it's a lost box deck. It's, it, you have to play it well.

Liam: 48:29

yeah, it's a lot of work for like a not so great matchup spread, right, I don't, I don't think it's terrible, but it is a lot of work, and I think it also has some, some consistency issues, because you have to go so, so fast now. Or else you just get, like, swept off the board. Um, but it's a good deck, for sure. uh, a lot of good decks. Um,

Cam: 48:56

I think Diaga Matang is a funny deck. Um, it probably doesn't beat Zard consistently enough. Um, especially with, um, Radiant Charizard, but I feel like there, like you can run hot with a, um, and I think it did get top 32 recently, um,

Liam: 49:23

yeah, I know, I know Drewben, uh, Drewben Ikenna has been having good runs,

Cam: 49:28

mhm.

Liam: 49:29

and that seems good to me. I mean, it's not, it's not that good, I think, but

Brent: 49:35

mean, the whole point

Liam: 49:36

it's more real,

Brent: 49:38

it's, crazy, right?

Liam: 49:39

than people give it credit for, I think. I actually think people are respecting it a fair bit now, but it's, yeah, it's somewhat real. Good to,

Cam: 49:49

Uh, I don't know if I would, uh, play it. My friend, um, Jordan Dimlao played Goldango to Orlando. And he got top 128. And he's like, oh, if you want to play a deck for Indies since you already have Invite. Like, Goldango's pretty good. And I was like, alright, cool, send me the list and tell me the matchups. And he's like, well, Charizard's not that good. Gardevoir's not very good either. Ancient Box is pretty bad. And then he, uh, he's like, Chen Pao is probably, like, you're slightly in favor, and I was just like, huh. Um, but, it's, uh, another deck that, and he, he laughed, and he just said, like, it doesn't take a lot of great matchups, but it does kind of get there sometimes. Um, and so, you know, you do have Spear Tomb in a lot of lists running around, uh, which is probably you're out to beat Zard. Um, maybe I'll try that list. It's tested a little bit leading into this week, it's probably not amazing, but, um, I think the Palkia, I think Palkia is pretty good. I think Palkia, Greninja, um, you know, that, if you can get it going early and just knock out double Charmander, uh, it gives you outs. So, it's similar to Chen Pao. And that you can run hot. But otherwise, I haven't tested much else. Um,

Brent: 51:21

So, what's going to be the share of, uh, Lecky versions versus Tordish versions?

Cam: 51:29

um, it will be probably 10 percent lucky. I don't think lucky will be I mean, I think most people are down to just play the non lucky version. And like I said, like, if you play the double Charmeleon version, um, which does do worse against Giratina and Lost Box, like, like, uh, Liam said, but, like, you're just, you should be even if not favored into the Lucky version. The Lucky version just gives you, the Lucky plus Eerie gives you some different looks into Lost Box and Chen Pao, and if your opponent doesn't play around it in the Zardemir.

Liam: 52:17

Yeah. It's such a large commitment though, I don't, I don't love it. I, I

Cam: 52:25

ways that you could potentially just try to add in very few cards, like wait, Kaiwen's list, the Australian list, is like a halfway in between, which doesn't always feel great, but if you're just looking to beat Chen Pao, and maybe you just feel like you need to throw in an Eerie into Tord Zard, or Um, an Eerie and a Lucky, or something like that, like three cards in it to make your Chen Pao matchup better, because Chen Pao is looking like the best, most well rounded counter to Zarn, even though it is Hunt, uh, RunHot. Mm

Liam: 52:59

Yeah, I It just feels like you can't play the Alekki unless you cut, like, three cards minimum. Like, it doesn't feel like it even does anything without the Aerie and the Devo. And, like, once you commit that hard, it just makes so much sense to go a lot harder. And, and so you, you just lose so much stuff. You lose so much. Um, yeah, I don't, I don't like it. I really, I really wish I could just play the Alekki on its own. having a 130 HP bench into CPAL is good, but it does literally nothing on its own. Like, it needs so much support to do something. I

Cam: 53:43

is probably worse, and it's probably better if you play into it. It's not nearly as consistent. It, it isn't. And I think that's I mean, that's what happens when you cut a bunch of consistency cards for tech cards. But it just has a way of getting there, against a lot of matchups, it feels like. And um, and the player playing Double Charmeleon Zard has to be very good, and they cannot play into certain things. And I think a lot of people aren't playing the Double Charmeleon list, to be quite honest. But

Liam: 54:17

my list specifically, but I think a lot of people have picked up Rowan's list, and I think his list is good. So I'm expecting a good chunk of Rowan's list. But the upside is, the second Charmeleon I don't think has the same effect if you're playing the first Charmeleon. The Heat Tackle one, um, the one without the ability, right, which is the one Rowan played, and the one the netdeckers are playing. Um, so, I mean, maybe you do get away with it a little bit more, even though people are on, like, second Charmeleon.

Cam: 54:51

I think the Lucky Zard, and the version that you have Um, that you won with, I think are going to be the best into the mirror. And if you're trying to do anything in the middle, you're going to probably lose to one of the other two. Um, either the hard control or the just double Chermeleon, uh, double Turo. Which is very, very good into the mirror, um, in its own way.

Liam: 55:16

agree with all that?

Cam: 55:19

So, I mean, I don't know how, how long does it take before, uh, Is Zahr too good, or are we just going to have to deal with it for a set?

Liam: 55:29

Apparently Dragapult takes over next set, but we can save that for another time. Um, I guess really quickly before we wrap up. I don't know if you've tested this much, but, like, I guess the hot deck is um, Ispathra Benet. Um,

Cam: 55:48

Yeah, I mean, I've seen it around, it's like

Liam: 55:51

played it much? Or no?

Cam: 55:53

um, no, I've played against it'cause people aren't playing it at locals and it's kind of like the, you know, it's the, the cool rogue of the format that is supposed to counter, um, the best deck in the format. Um, I, it, it can do that. I mean, I think chars would pilot it by the best. Still doesn't beat it or it still beats it, but, uh, it's an interesting duck. Nonetheless, Bayonet is, is interesting as always. As someone who, you know, yourself, you started Bayonet, you know. You may not love it, but here, you are the father of Bayonet.

Liam: 56:34

Yeah, I played it pretty early on, huh? I think Mateus is, Mateus is really that guy, though.

Cam: 56:42

So how about you, have you played it at all?

Liam: 56:45

Uh, Ispathra? No. I don't know.

Cam: 56:49

Charizard or Busted Liam?

Liam: 56:51

Uh, dude, the Esbathra, the Esbathra seems so bad. So bad. It doesn't, it doesn't do anything except, except beat Zard. Like, only beat Zard if you beat them to the bonnet. Like, you can maybe squeak out wins with the Esbathra anyway. I know Braid and Elfer is like, He is adamant that that deck smushes Zard, but, and he's like, both the stream games, those were just flukes, bro. I smushed it every other time, bro. But I, if you watch those stream games back, man, it looked, it looked pretty convincing. Um, and like, it, the, his opponents, it was Pedro, the, the most recent one, didn't, didn't hit anything crazy. It was like, They Pidgeot for a piece every turn, and then they take a prize, and, then they get the rad Zard at the end. Like, it was pretty, you know, pretty logical stuff, but then like, but I mean, I guess apparently it beats it. And it definitely does feel really bad when they hit the turn 2 Banette, but like, you just, you always win if you get the turn 2 Banette. Like, you can build a million decks that win if you get turn 2 Banette into Zard. Um, it's just, I don't know, it doesn't seem that good to me. Dude,

Brent: 58:19

what crazy people say, right?

Liam: 58:22

I don't know if you saw me talking with Yvonne about this, Cam, Did You Yeah or no?

Cam: 58:25

I see everything that goes on in that Discord, okay?

Liam: 58:29

you read everything? Yeah.

Cam: 58:35

I'm, I'm reading.

Liam: 58:37

Yeah. Well, what I told Yvonne

Cam: 58:39

BS you have to deal with to learn from these young, but very good. But gosh darn the hubris of these young players

Liam: 58:50

Um,

Cam: 58:50

you have to put up with.

Liam: 58:53

yeah, uh, what I told Aban was, basically, except for Andrew Hedrick, tell me a time when a player, after winning a event, they always run back to the same 60, because of course, the deck feels amazing! They always run it back, and they're basically doomed to a top 32 finish, or worse. They never do well.

Cam: 59:16

I don't think that's a bad thing. And when you think about, it's when you're top 32 in a top, a 2,400 person event, like you have to have insane luck to win the event. When you get to the. To that point. Like, getting a top 32 means, like, you also had a sick run, it just didn't go

Liam: 59:35

Okay, let me put my goals out on this podcast really quick.

Cam: 59:39

Yeah, it's winning, and winning alone, and everything less is a disgrace and a dishonor

Liam: 59:44

let me know,

Cam: 59:45

name. We know.

Liam: 59:46

trying to create a GOAT argument. That's my goal long term. I got around 15 years, I'm trying to make a GOAT argument. And let me know if somebody ever brought up a top 32 finish in a GOAT argument. It, it doesn't happen. Ain't nobody care about that.

Brent: 1:00:00

Well, so, but, but, but what's, is there any counter evidence where somebody did well at a tournament, and then the next week switched decks, and, and, Won the tournament again?

Liam: 1:00:11

Nobody does that though, nobody does that! It's a 0 for 0!

Cam: 1:00:14

DDG and their Prime.

Liam: 1:00:16

DDG and the Frog.

Brent: 1:00:17

That, that, there, you go, that's actually, that's actually pretty good, that's pretty good. I, I, you know, the, the running the same 60 back and getting crazy results, obviously the first example that comes to mind, and this is too old, so, Liam would discount it, would be Sosa,

Liam: 1:00:31

Ah, so so, yeah, that was good stuff. He was definitely

Brent: 1:00:35

60 at regional after regional, and take down this regional, and take down that regional, and take

Cam: 1:00:39

but isn't this what, uh, but I feel like that's what all the top players do on some level. I mean, there's a little bit of switching, but even then, like, you think about it, um, what's his name, um, John Ng, John Ng won his region, it wasn't the first time that he played Giratina. Like, you can have runs with these decks, you just pick, everyone has been picking their comfort pick for the most part.

Liam: 1:01:03

yeah, somewhat. I think that's because the meta's like, somewhat tight, but I think it's It's really changed in this, like, for the last, like, year or so, we've had, like, a 10 10 10 meta, um, since, like, Lugia. Uh, because Gardevoir, I think, was, like, the BDIF, but it was a really hard deck to play, so it caused it to be a low meta share, and so, basically, everything else followed that same trend of, like, 10 10 10 10 10. Um, and now that I think, like, we're back to a BDIF meta, I think it makes it a little bit different, where playing new decks and trying to hard counter the BDIF, the new meta. Whatever is, like, in store in the BDIF is, like, a real strategy. I think going into Orlando, I was countering the BDIF because most players were not playing towards Zard, or they were playing a few cards off. Going forward, everybody's hard tech for the mirror. Playing Zard feels terrible. Um, like, you don't know if it's Double Devo, you don't know if it's Max Belt, you don't know if it's Heroes Cave, you don't know, like, if it's Prime Catcher, you don't know if they're playing Double Turo, you don't know if they're playing Palpat over Yelch here, like, There's so much stuff you don't know, so like, in the mirror is like, it's really hard to garner an advantage, I think, when like, I was confident that I was going to have a list advantage, I was confident there was going to be like, one or less Turos, confident in one or less Devos, like, I was very confident in the lists, um, the Zerg lists people were playing at Orlando, and I was confident that my list had an advantage. Going forward, I don't think that's the case. Um, I think there's going to be more Barbaral as well. Like, it just, it just makes the matchup much, much more complicated. And I think it's going to be hard to garner an advantage and have, like, some, you know, repeat 8 0 1 against the mirror at, uh, Indie. And I think beating, beating Zard's going to be very important if you want to have, like, a good shot at winning the event. And so, I think leaning towards something anti meta and getting off of Zard Right now is, like, a strategic thing to consider. Um, it's, it's really hard, I think. We're going to be really hard to take Zard and win this event. Somebody will, there's a good chance somebody does. Um, but it, it's hard to be that person. Um, I, I think everybody's going to have, like, pretty close to 50 50 odds in the mirror. And it's harder to get an advantage right now. If you're gonna hit a lot of mirror hits, it's hard to get an advantage. That's Brent.

Cam: 1:03:15

I think mirrors are more skill intensive than ever, there's so much you have to play around, and just the thought, the implied D. Va, the implied Eerie, the implied non Eerie, like it just means so much, and you just have to play very, very carefully, uh, it's very funny, very interesting, uh, I'm not sure if I want to play Zard

Liam: 1:03:33

Yeah, dude, I don't know if I'm built like that, man. I was I'm not very good at this Armier, man. I've been testing against the, the Goodless, the Barrels, all that stuff. It's like, it's a lot harder, man. My win rate's like a lot closer to 50 50, not, not 8 0 1 win rate.

Brent: 1:03:55

Guys, we're an hour and three minutes in, and the Sixers game is on.

Liam: 1:03:59

Uh,

Brent: 1:04:00

gotta call it.

Liam: 1:04:00

Yeah, sounds like we gotta call it.

Brent: 1:04:02

The John Pauls R outro will be back next week with the two finalists from Indianapolis. It's gonna be an amazing pod.

Liam: 1:04:10

Yep, that's the, the good luck ending, right? All right. See ya, everybody.