Henry Chao, locals, Auramaxing, and more

Liam: 0:00

Welcome to the Trash Blanche podcast. Attendance is a hundred percent. It's me, Liam Halliburton, Aban Ahmed, and Cameron Shannoy. Dragon Shields are our sponsor. Go use their sleeves, they're really good. I I like Dragon Shield. Dude, I saw Tord. Tord had an elite Twitter post. Did y'all see that? He had a bunch of, like, black matte Dragon Shields.

Cameron: 0:20

I did.

Abaan: 0:22

I did not see that. Oh, I thought you were talking about the fortress.

Cameron: 0:24

Is he

Liam: 0:25

Yeah.

Cameron: 0:29

Ooh, we're, we're, we're co sponsored. That's nice.

Abaan: 0:33

Co sponsored?

Liam: 0:35

bro. Yeah, he, he got some cube shells. He's gonna be doing a bunch of cubing, apparently. And, oh my god, so many black matte dragon shields. It's insane work. Wow. Aura!

Abaan: 0:48

Did you see his Pokemon. com article about Dragapult EX?

Liam: 0:51

You read the whole thing? Yes?

Abaan: 0:53

Yeah, I did. It was kind of boring. It was like, yeah, I don't know what I expected because it's like on the main website, but like, I don't know, I still hoped that he was going to drop some like crazy nuggets of information. Like,

Liam: 1:04

I thought it was pretty good.

Abaan: 1:05

I mean, it was good, it was like what you'd expect, but it wasn't like anything groundbreaking. I was kind of just cruising,

Liam: 1:10

Yeah, I mean, sure. I thought Yeah, I mean, I, I was like, Everything TORRENT always says.

Abaan: 1:20

Of course, yeah. Gospel. I guess you want to just get into some like some normal testing, testing thoughts? Yeah. Have a feelin about worlds, Format.

Liam: 1:29

sure, yeah, I actually, I've been doing a lot more testing for worlds than I kind of thought. I think, I think that goes for a lot of people. Maybe other people expected them to do the amount of testing that they're doing but yeah, I, I just kind of assumed that, like, you know, world's so far away, the cards aren't on TCG Live yet, the amount of Pokemon I play would decrease, but no, I don't think and that might just be, not even because it's, like, so important to play Pokemon right now, but just, I can't help it. I can't stop.

Cameron: 1:54

Huh. World Championship caliber players have been practicing new format. Interesting. I'm just kidding.

Abaan: 2:02

I think it's like, interesting though, because of where NAIC, like when, sorry, NAIC happened, it's like, too much of a gap. Normally, NAIC, it's around this time. We're supposed to like, you're supposed to be able to play NAIC, and then literally, Like, Worlds format's like, right on the corner, like, you don't lose any momentum, but right now, it's like, weird, like, I think I was actually, like, I had the opposite problem, where I feel like I was like, I was playing so much right after NAIC, because I didn't get to go, and then now, like, it's been like a month of testing, and I'm like, if the tournament was two weeks away, I could just keep my foot on the gas, but like, Kind of have to like pace myself like a little bit like the nice thing is there's cups of this like old format that like doesn't matter anymore so like I've spent like a little bit of time actually thinking about my cup formats and stuff I have some thoughts

Cameron: 2:49

I, I

Abaan: 2:50

it's weird like we have like a local meta where there's like no Lugia and there's like maybe like one or two Raging Bull and it's like whenever a local meta has like a deck that's like completely devoid of like I was talking to Kobe about this it's like I had this like mindset that like there's a best deck in the format and I just I just jammed out like I didn't This is the best deck, I'll play it at the cup, but when your local meta, like, artificially doesn't have, like, aspects of the meta that exist, like, on a global scale, like, there has to be a deck that's probably better than your best deck that, like, takes

Liam: 3:16

what I love about locals, like, it lets you just be more reckless with like your cuts and stuff like that and play a list that you usually wouldn't get to play. It's like, so fun.

Abaan: 3:26

Yeah, my issue, though, is, like, you do that, and then, like, you don't know who's gonna show up before you get there, right? So, like, you kinda have to, like, go to the tournament, and, like, Those last two, three spots are like kind of flexible, but I generally don't like doing that because I always like, I don't know, I just, I like knowing what list I'm playing before I show up, so I typically don't even make adjustments, I just show up and then I'm like, oh well, the three block lacks players showed up, my hands are tied, I already agree that I'm going to play one tarot, like, I'm not going to slide that in there, I guess I'll just take the L.

Liam: 3:56

I always, I only bring 60 cards. I think. Metagaming your locals, like, by, like, showing up and then, and then seeing what's happening, it's, like, absolutely fiendish activity. Because I think, I think it just creates, like a less, like chill local environment when, like, you know, people are like, oh, dude, if you, like, if you play a game before the event, then people are gonna, like, metagame for you or something. Like, I think that's

Abaan: 4:18

Yeah, I know people who bring like two lists, two decks, and they like actually, based on the room, and like, I don't know, it's funny because like, I always just opt to be like, well I'm playing this, I don't even tell like my friends who like, the ones like I really know, I'll tell them like what I'm playing, and like, if they like use that for the decision, like, I've just found that most of the time it doesn't pan out, like, you pick something based on like what the good players are playing, and then like, you run into like some bum playing like the counter to your like, your counter, and like, just playing what I wanted to play anyways like typically just pans out for me.

Liam: 4:48

Yeah, I mean, dude, playing good decks is always a good strategy, because they're well rounded. They don't have, like, glaring weaknesses, right? I'm always totally comfortable telling anyone who asks what I play, because it

Cameron: 5:01

I think

Liam: 5:01

Thanks for

Abaan: 5:26

the best deck in format main.

Cameron: 5:28

Yeah, so you just know, like, Lugia, Charizard, which one, if he shows up, maybe I just jam in this

Abaan: 5:34

there's no feelings attached to this for him, bro. He literally just plays the best deck. Always.

Cameron: 5:40

Cal usually just plays Guardi, so like, maybe if Cal shows up, like, I'll bring, like, a Guardi tech or something.

Abaan: 5:46

The problem is that like, Kobe doesn't like, explicitly do it. Like, we have the Kawasaki's and they always just like, They actually, like, they don't metagame based on, like, what people say they're playing, but they've always told me, like, they just know what archetypes people, like, like, and they're, like, they go into, like, they always do this, like, fun game where they just start pointing at people, and they're, like, this guy only plays these two decks, and, like, then you, like, ask the guy, and that guy's actually playing one of those two decks, and, like,

Cameron: 6:08

oh yeah, Seattle players are very

Abaan: 6:11

they got it locked, bro.

Cameron: 6:12

Very obvious, their plays,

Abaan: 6:13

Did you see Ian Robb was giving a masterclass on how to prepare for locals, and we're just dropping this information for free? Missed opportunity.

Cameron: 6:21

How to win an Elite Cup! One of your four masterclasses.

Abaan: 6:26

Dude, I feel like Jordan would buy that, right?

Cameron: 6:28

Yeah, he, he, he might, he might,

Abaan: 6:32

Not cause Jordan's bad at winning League Cups, but it's just Jordan he has like a full time job and so he just like, he always like tells us like, I just, it makes sense for me to buy the Masterclass, like I don't have time to test. I'll just buy the Masterclass and like, they'll test and like, it's like I'm paying them. like, outsourcing my work.

Liam: 6:46

Dude, dude, I respect it a lot, I think it comes from an eagerness to learn, that's that's respectable.

Cameron: 6:54

yeah, he's trying to drop bars in the, in the chat with us.

Abaan: 6:58

I think people are getting kind of bored with these masterclasses though now, like, at this point, like,

Cameron: 7:02

Yeah, bruh, they're doing masterclasses, oh, for anything, it's like, bro, how to, how to register for a regional masterclass, like, Jesus Christ, no, I'm like, it's not that bad, but it's pretty bad,

Abaan: 7:12

close! No, it's close. I saw Ian Robb, like, even was thinking about, like, making one for his GLC deck. I was like, there's no way, right?

Cameron: 7:19

like, okay, masterclass

Abaan: 7:21

Rare Raikou.

Liam: 7:24

well, yeah, we're seeing, like, it doesn't really matter, right? I think, I think another thing, like, what it really is to show What masterclasses have kind of transitioned to is, I think, GameSmart recently released, like, a free masterclass. Yeah, like, really, it's just a way for these, like, guys to upload content and, like in a way that's predictable for the audience and easy for them to structure because they can do it completely independently without, like, you know, it's not like one on one coaching.

Abaan: 7:52

Always say this, like, I don't know if this is the first ever Masterclass, but that's Seer and Pharah, like, those videos, like, I was, like, I think I'm a pretty good player, but, like, I still pick up a lot of stuff whenever I watch those videos. Is it Kirin? Oh, sorry, I thought it was, oh, okay.

Liam: 8:06

it's ki Kieran Faroh.

Cameron: 8:07

cured and

Abaan: 8:08

okay, my bad, my bad, my bad. Actually, I feel bad, I don't want to mispronounce his name.

Cameron: 8:11

Local, regional, grinder, bro.

Abaan: 8:14

yeah. He, his videos are elite. Like, those old, like, Bax videos. Guardi videos like

Liam: 8:21

dude, yeah. Shout out. Shout out to the shift gear. I like, I, I am so blown away by how much effort he, he puts into his podcast. It is commendable, like into all his content. Yep.

Cameron: 8:57

like when it was articles people who didn't write articles well and people who just take minimal effort because they think that's all it is is like teaching people

Abaan: 9:07

yeah, I just wanted to make like a distinction though Cuz like I think his like master class work is just like elite like above like any other content I've ever

Cameron: 9:13

yeah

Abaan: 9:14

that's why I wanted to like shout him out specifically

Cameron: 9:16

like there's still great people doing it but then there's also like the little super lazy people that are making it like Doing it, right? Just sliding in with like five masterclasses, like, okay, you just ranted on a bunch of PowerPoints. Pokemon basically found out, you know, they could take some of their college skills and maybe do something with it in the Pokemon community.

Abaan: 9:35

Instead of making a presentation and paying them to present it. You're you're getting paid make the same same quality work I don't know, I always like seeing Pokemon players getting paid, like, in general, like, it's a good thing for the scene, but it's like, it's kind of weird because, like, whenever someone in our community figure out how to get paid, it always involves getting paid off, like, other players, like, we never really have, like, good ways of getting, like, sponsored from, like, outside sources, other than, like, I guess, like, Shield, like, pretty much the only, like, sleeves from, or, like, sponsors from outside sources are, like, sleeve companies and, like, game stores, like, I swear we, like, there's probably, like, more avenues to get sponsored, but, like, we're kind of stuck on, like, These two main,

Liam: 10:13

I don't know, I don't believe in sponsorships at all. I think like, players just like, I struggle to believe that, like, players have, like, that large of a platform, like, specifically people who aren't like, content creators. If they're not, like, actually just creating content I don't think, like, the

Abaan: 10:30

Sure, I agree with that, I don't think, like, my main point was like, the people who do create content, like, they could, I feel

Liam: 10:34

sure, sure.

Abaan: 10:35

Could create like more wide ranging sponsors, but I don't know. I'm not like really in that scene, right? So but the point I was making was like dude It's like always would like ways for this game to be more sustainable to play like full time But it's like all there all the methods I see is always like it's like a Ponzi scheme You know, like I gotta like ask like everyone else to pay you, you know,

Liam: 10:54

Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, the goal is actually to play the game, like, full time, not to, like, be doing something, like, related to the game. Full time, I guess, you know? Like, I, wouldn't want to be, like, coaching full time.

Cameron: 11:07

Oh, no.

Liam: 11:07

want to play the game full time, right?

Cameron: 11:10

Yeah,

Liam: 11:12

yeah.

Abaan: 11:14

But to get into some actual, like, deck specific stuff, like I mean, I know that Liam and I really have been liking Guardi recently, but, you know, Liam, I was actually, someone asked me, like, what are your, like, good matchups? And I, like, I struggled to answer, because, like, it's funny, like, I was like like, Zard's alright, like, Zard can be good, depends on the list, like, I don't know, Vax is fine,

Liam: 11:34

I think, I, I think, yeah if, if you bring Gardia to Worlds, the answer to that question has to be the mirror. You have to believe that you have a good mirror matchup if

Abaan: 11:45

But like, that can't work, like, that can't make sense, like, if we're all thinking we're gonna play Guardi, and our best matchup's Amir, like, that doesn't make sense, right, like, it has to be, like, what are, what is the, like, I don't know, Guardi does work, like, I, I understand, like, why I like it, but I can't really figure out, like, I just get there with most matchups, like, the Raging Bull matchup doesn't even feel good with, like, our current list, like, all these, like, like, the Lugia matchup is, like, kinda sus, like, I don't even know, like, why it's, feels so good.

Liam: 12:08

I like, I like the bold match. I, dude, I like, I like every matchup. I think Garde is just, it's just too strong of a deck. Like, everything I said across from him, I'm like, Dude, you better not let me get this Garde EX up. I get this Garde EX up, and it's cooked.

Abaan: 12:22

Have you played against the, like, Bolt matchup in the new format, where they have, like, five bundles a game with the four stretcher? And you still think it's, fine?

Liam: 12:29

I, you have to, you have to outtrade them. And that's like, that's pretty daunting. But yeah. You have to outtrade them. Yeah.

Abaan: 12:41

like Mewie X a Raging Bull, and maybe you like Garde, Monkey, kill like an Ogre Pawn, and that's game. Then they can have taken, like, if they take two prizes before you start

Liam: 12:50

two prizes first. Like

Cameron: 12:52

and just for everyone listening, because I know these guys just went off speeding into Garde thinking that explained everything, they're talking about the Henry Chow Garde with no Drifloon, so they're talking under the context that they can't one shot

Abaan: 13:04

Oh, I forgot, yes, yes.

Cameron: 13:05

huge

Abaan: 13:06

Oh yeah, Gryfflu makes the matchup way better. We just hate playing that card because you need room for Double Monkey, Triple Dark. But also, if you're playing at Worlds, bro, feel free not to have that.

Cameron: 13:15

And that's why Liam thinks that he's taking a better mirror, so just, once again, adding the context for anyone who doesn't know. I

Liam: 13:28

I think the Henry Chow Guardian is absolutely amazing. It's absolutely amazing. I think people are seeing that as well. It was by far the best list at NAIC. Like, I would have given anything to run NAIC with that list instead of, you know, any other list that we have

Abaan: 13:44

I would literally have studied early, taken my finals a week early, and like, tried to register for NAIC if I knew I had that list in the back pocket, bro.

Liam: 13:52

yeah.

Abaan: 13:55

That list is

Liam: 13:55

list is absolutely amazing.

Abaan: 13:57

that tournament, at least, it was perfect. And like, yeah, even he agrees there needs to be some

Liam: 14:02

it needs a little bit more for Zard with the Duskner. Like Second Devo, we have the Mew EX right now just a little something to push Zard over the top because you have a little bit less time than usual because the Duskner, Duskner can really aggro you down. But, The list is amazing in

Abaan: 14:22

I will say too, the

Liam: 14:24

an amazing deck.

Abaan: 14:25

The weird thing that's come up with Mew EX though, against Dusknoir, is they can sometimes, if you let them get to one, and then you have to Mew EX them, I have this like come up, is like, they can Dusknoir and just go to Sudden Death, and I think Zard is like extremely favoured in Sudden Death.

Liam: 14:39

Oh yeah, for sure. For sure.

Abaan: 14:40

Like there's just no way, cause like, all your responses involve like, they evolve into Zard, and then I'll Devo or something, but. And then another thing we were talking about, the Mewe EX, that card has been completely broken for me. Like, first of all, in Guardian Mirror, a lot of times, like, it's it depends on how you play it, and like, I'm like struggling to find the correct answer necessarily, but like, it either is a matchup where you have all your Curlias and they're just targeting your Monkeys, and it's like, find your Super Rod Dark every single turn, Or, it's like, they just kill, like, your Kirlia's because you have a slow start, and you're zero Kirlia's and, like, two Monkeys and a Dream, and, like, at some point, you get Iona'd low, and it literally comes down to, like, a Mew X draw, like, often. Like, the Mew X, like, the ability's good, the attack, like, I mean, it comes up against, like, Lostbox, Lostbox isn't benching Manaphy against you realistically, like, in mirror, like, sometimes, like, If they have if you have to bench Greninja to get going, there's no room for Manaphy. There's no way you can ever bench Greninja, Manaphy, and not just lose on the spot, right? So like, if you have Greninja down, you either Turo, or like, you're kind of vulnerable to Mew EX. Often they're even in prizes, so like, the boss doesn't really come up. But like, Mew EX is just put in work, like, that card, like, if Dialga ever comes to the thing, like, that's like, kind of a, like, big deal. Kind of a meme, but like, if Diago ever comes a thing, that's Mutex is crazy into that, like, I am very happy to have put the Mutex on the deck, just like, versatile, like, it's not

Liam: 15:56

it's, it's so good. It's like, the monkey fixes a lot of numbers to actually make the Medi X attacks, like, work. Like it's able to just serve as like a three energy one hit into, like, so many matchups

Abaan: 16:08

And most decks aren't running, like, that much healing, so like, a lot of people ask me, like, oh, like, how can you play this deck without Drifloon, like, aren't you, like, worried about, like, having no nuke? And the thing is, like, realistically, Things aren't, like, if you are double monkeying consistently, which you can with two monkeys, three dark, like, Gardi hits for 190. Let's say you double monkey, right, right away. That's already, like, 250, and then you can just kill them next turn, like, and then it's even better when you get to kill them next turn, because you can, like, CC what you want, Iono, then monkey, and you already have, like, you take your six from Iono, then draw the two, like, I don't know. You do have a nuke. It's double monkey. That's the nuke. Delayed.

Liam: 16:43

yeah, the, and like, you have the D. Va to avoid needing to like, nuke it. Like, I, the deck makes so much sense. I don't think the, I don't think trying to nuke things is like, the right direction for a Guardian. That was literally like, what held the deck back, which was like, you're leaning so hard on this like, Bravery, Charm, Driftloon, which is like, a large combo, and it's not even like, a super powerful one. Right, it still is too weak to things like VAC and Jamming Tower. And it doesn't just create, like, the uncomfortable positions. Like, being able to dodge knockouts and then take multi price turns is incredibly powerful. Especially in a format with Fez. Fezantipity, right?

Abaan: 17:18

Yeah, and there's this implicit buff, too, with the deck, like, When you played against Urshifu players that were super competent, I like, I love making this analogy, when you played against Urshifu players that were super competent back in the day, like, you didn't really know what was going on, and that's partly because of like, yoga loop and stuff, but it's like, it was very hard to visualize their threats fully, because of the two intel pings, and the alakazam, and the yoga loop, and so like, a lot of times, like, you just be so dizzy against the top players, and like, if you're playing Guardia Worlds, you're probably gonna have to 1 0 people, so like, you shouldn't, this isn't you're out, but it's just something that will happen at at the tournament inevitably is like you'll just as long as you are super fluent and like the like monkey potential like there's so many random lines with like D. Va, Monkey like it's just so hard to keep it all in front of you that you can just like lose games like the first time you really see a cracked Guardian player.

Liam: 18:06

yeah, I think it's the monkey is literally, it's so, so hard to play against, like, because the guardi player only has to find, like, one line that works, which is an easier process than you having to, like, stop every line that works, right? Like, you have to cover up every hole and every weakness in your board, as opposed to Where they just have to find like one place for the monkey to just, you know, absolutely crush you. And it, it, it's much harder for them to do that. Like, like

Abaan: 18:34

And sometimes,

Liam: 18:35

it. It's so hard.

Abaan: 18:37

sometimes it's not your fault, like sometimes it's truly like a second mover's advantage, like the fact that you have to commit to some play like means that there is such a line that exists on their end that is like crushing and like you couldn't have prevented all the lines like even if you like look at the line they do and they're like oh I should have done this and this and stop it there probably was like a new line that opened up right so like sometimes the pokemon people get into the trap of like oh well they did this thing that was really good like how do I stop it like sometimes you couldn't have really stopped it and that's like you Then you know the deck you played against was extremely powerful, like, oh, like, that wasn't my fault, I just, I lost.

Liam: 19:10

Yeah. Every time I play, every time I play Guardi, I, after every turn, I just, I celebrate with myself. I'm everywhere. I'm everywhere. That's how I feel when I'm using the monkeys. I'm just. I'm doing whatever I want, like, the deck is too good, there's damage everywhere, and then, like, everything just dies. You're like, you're pacing so well, you're so disruptive on the board by, like, avoiding taking knockouts. It is, honestly, god, insane.

Abaan: 19:39

I will say, too, like I know we got into disagreements about this, but like, every time I deviate from the Henry Chalice, or like, okay, I have it, like, I just play it, right, because I'm like, well, like, I just want to see, like, what he's thinking about and stuff, and like, I honestly see the logic of so many things more and more. First of all, this Aroma vs. Stamp thing, I've like, I already thought about it, like, I played one cup with this tournament, and like, I was like, man, Stamp could have been nice, right? And then I was like, on the drive home, I was like, nah. It, you literally, like, I thought about my games, like, the only games I was even in, like, danger of losing was when I prized Aroma, or like, I couldn't find it, or I couldn't find like an Arvin or Irda, and I was like, man, like, If you ever hit Aroma, you're already, like, the favorite to win. Like, you do just need Kirlia's to play the game, and if you're playing the game, you're, like, the heavy favorite, if you'll like. And it doesn't really matter what matchup it is, because, like, nothing, like, at the very worst, often, you can just put them in a monkey flip, like, oh, I'm gonna hit you with the Confused Beam, and, like, most decks don't have enough, like, switches, or, like, whatever, like, there's so many, like, vulnerabilities in this format that, like, it's so hard to build a deck that, like, smashes Guardi.

Liam: 20:43

Yeah I think the yeah, the Aromas, what's really weird about it is, like, Garde feels like it's winning on the price trade, like, regardless of disruption. Like, they can have access to all the resources in their deck, and like, I mean, that's not even true, but like The combos that they have to hit are, like, so outlandish that, like, they just never happen, as long as you're playing, like, even Iona, right? And even without Iona, sometimes, like, you know, they could be hitting on, sitting on, like, 6, 7, 8 card hands, and, like, you know that you're just fine. And, it's really weird, because you start off behind, but, but Guardi feels like it's just winning on board, like, almost every game that you get your Guardi EX up, which

Abaan: 21:26

Yeah, it's like all these matchups are like, like a lot of these matchups aren't great on paper, but then when you actually sit down to play them, it's just like, you can't explain like why exactly it works necessarily, because it's like, you just Like, you have to do some monkey math here, there, like, it's really hard to explain how winning you are. But, even like, the matches I was saying earlier that I didn't feel the most comfortable in, like Raging Bolt or Lugia, like, when I played them, like, I have extremely good winning chances, and like, I win, like, a lot of the time, and I just get there. And I hate using that as a justification, or like, how to explain a deck's, like, power, but like, it's, it's sometimes, with some decks, like, it lacks, like, a better, more concrete plan to, like, explain, like, how you get there.

Cameron: 22:05

think it's, it's similar to, like, Drampagard, right? It's a deck that inherently takes a lot of 50 50s, and when you break it down, when it comes down to it, it, like Like, a better player will probably make that a 55 45, and a worse player will probably make that a 45 55. Because they'll just see lines, right? That

Abaan: 22:25

will say Drampegar preyed on like this inherent

Cameron: 22:28

Yeah, it's a different deck, deck style differently, but like, the same, like,

Abaan: 22:34

yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, I think the thing about Drampagarb that was so beautiful, like, that was one of my favorite decks. It was my first ever Master's Cache with Drampagarb, so it's like a special place in my heart. That deck, people just suck at not playing item cards. That's like the truth. Like, we're literally called the Trashland Podcast. Bro, like, people just were terrible at not playing a lot of items. Like, you were like, how am I gonna one shot him? And then you like, look at their discard and like, wait, he just played like four items at the end there, like, randomly. Ultra Ball, like, Flowstone, Blower. Okay, Well, I guess I figured out how I'm gonna one shot. Like, that's it.

Cameron: 23:03

And the thing at that tournament was, it was my very first tournament, so I wasn't really going in saying anything. That one that you were talking about, that you cached at. Everyone was playing Drampgarb, and everyone thought they were really good at the mirror.

Abaan: 23:15

Yes, yes,

Cameron: 23:16

always made the comment at the beginning, they're like, Oh, I'm like, 3 0 in the mirror and shit. I'm like, okay, that's pretty sick. And then afterwards, like, you 2 0'em. And then, like, that was all thanks to Finn, because Finn taught me everything about the deck. But it's just like, everyone is so confident

Abaan: 23:30

I was sick at the mirror too, I wanna put that out there, I was sick at the mirror. Except Isaiah Williams, I didn't, I thought he was a nobody at the time, it turns out that guy is the GOAT, but I think that was like one of his earlier tournaments, and he cleared me in the mirror, and I was like, what a fluke. Oh well, and then I, turns out that guy's actually correct.

Liam: 23:49

Yeah.

Abaan: 23:51

Wait Liam, I forget, like, were you playing? Did you play that format? Do you know what I'm talking we're talking

Cameron: 23:55

Were you also sick at the mirror?

Liam: 23:57

Well, I was young at the time, so I wasn't even thinking about, like, deck choice, decks. Like, I wasn't really thinking at all. I was kind of just, you know, somebody gives me a 60, I jam it down, right? I played a lot of SB Guard, though. I definitely thought I was sick with that. Oh, yeah. Oh, I definitely thought I was sick. Oh, boy. I was like I was hitting the Confuse and all that stuff, and I thought I was kicking

Abaan: 24:16

We can't all be sick of the mirror. Someone here has to be wrong.

Liam: 24:20

No,

Abaan: 24:20

guy has to have a story like, I lose every mirror. No, I'm just thinking like at these tournaments, like when we're everyone's sick of the mirror, like there has to be one guy's like, man I can't win a mirror to save my life. I'm 0 6 in the mirror.

Liam: 24:34

Yeah. Oh, what I was going to say earlier about Guardi though, I think I think the matchups like, I tried to do it earlier, I think the matchups are like, just like, unflowchartable, like literally every matchup, because you're, like the whole point, or like, it would take so much effort to make like a whole entire flowchart for this, because you're just so reactive, like, anytime there's like a weakness on board, you, you have like multiple threats, right, you have the Guardi Flutter. You have Mind Bend, and then you have, like, you have Sniping, right, and any time there's, like, any weakness created, and, like, these are weaknesses that don't come up, right in flowcharts, and that's, that's why, like, where flowcharts suffer, right, like, flowcharts don't, don't get when somebody, like, has to discard an extra switch card or something like that, and any time a weakness, like, that's created, and, like, those weaknesses are inevitable, Guardi just, like, farms it, but it's not something that you, like, flowchart out, you know?

Abaan: 25:35

I will say, like, that's exactly how I try to explain to my friend about Eerie Zard vs. Bax. It's like, like, you Eerie'd and you hit, like, three candies. Alright, this is, like, a kill the Baxes and, like, force them out of candies game. Or, like, you Eerie and you hit two Rod. Maybe this is also, like, a kill enough Bax game. Or, like, you Eerie and you hit, like, two SCRs. Maybe this is, like, a jam a Lecky with, like, Cape and, like, CC stuff and, like, Brotherhood of Energy's game, and it's like, so hard to even put into words all the things that happen, that like, truly, like, you just play the game, and like, it just comes, like, clear to you, like, what you're supposed to do, and like, there's, and like, even the Bax versus Guardi matchup currently is like that. Like, sometimes you're supposed to like, set up, like, put 60 on one of the Bidus, and then like, D. Va them or something like, or 611 the Barrels and then D. Va them and like that's the play or like there's so many lines with these decks that like when you can D. Va put damage places and then like also like CC Iono and stuff like there's like there's too many lines to ever even imagine a flowchart because sometimes like A line will literally completely deviate to a line that's unrecognizable because of a different resource being taxed, right? So like, every flowchart would have to be like, this is a 1 rod 1 CC, like, 2 ultraball scenario. And like, that's impossible to like, write a flowchart for that. Like, you just have to feel it out, unfortunately.

Liam: 26:49

Exactly. Exactly.

Cameron: 26:50

And I think that's, Something that people also need to pra I was watching a kid, a kid that I coach when he was practicing by himself or with another person, and they just jammed, like, the same line three times in a row. And I was just like, I don't know, like, you can't really do that in practicing. I don't know, that feels like such a waste of time. And they lost all three games. And it's just like, you just did the same thing like three times in a row, it feels. Like you just need to try things out, deviate. I know that sometimes people just go flowcharty, but Pokemon, I don't know.

Abaan: 27:25

You know. what the worst part about that is?

Liam: 27:26

flowcharting is like the worst thing in Pokemon ever, dude. It actually just breaks my heart anytime people are like, aggressively flowcharting matchups, thinking on the fly and like deviating from the main line. That's like, that's where like the most fun games of Pokemon are played, you know?

Abaan: 27:43

I think the problem though that sucks is that it's really like if you need to just try things out and find lines like that you either need to play a huge volume of games or you need to have a method that most people implicitly have where it's like you have to be able to rule out some lines are clearly not correct like you just have to like sit up there think about it and you're like oh I can see the ending of that not being correct but the problem is when that process is broken you just can never see a line by definition because like the second that line comes into your head you like for some reason don't see the ending and so you discard it immediately and then you just keep like no matter how many tries you do if in that process you're always discounting a certain But the problem is, you can't not have a discounting process, because like, sitting there and playing every single type of line for is like, too many games. Like, even with like, a large volume, like, you're still just wasting time. I think the best thing you can do is like, hone that process, right? Hone the process of discarding lines. That to like, effi make yourself more

Liam: 28:37

That's, yeah, that's, that's what, like, proficiency at the game comes from, like, being able to accurately assess whether or not lines are winning, right? Like, you have to be able to not have to, but the discarding lines is, is where all the mistakes are made, right? If you're able to calculate everything out, you'd always pick the best line, but, Sometimes we we stop, like, you know, turn too early. And I find that happens, like, a lot with Guardi, because you're like, oh, wait, like, the monkey actually just saves you, because you get, like, a second threat, or something like that later down the line that you, like, ended up discarding, or whatever. Like, the Guardi ones are so hard to predict. Guardi, Guardi is a really difficult deck to play, at least for me.

Abaan: 29:16

I think Guardi, the trick comes to me, is that like, you know how like we were talking about earlier, like, sometimes there's nothing you can do against the Guardi, because you need to like, they can change their decision? I think committing Super Rod is like one of the more intricate parts of Guardi, where it's like, you need to play Super Rod when you see it, a lot of the time, because you can't just hold it, it's like an I most matchups become like an Iona war, and like, often you don't get to just see the Super Rod when you want it, but the thing is like, Committing Superodd makes your hand like a little face up, and it's like, infinite possibilities get narrower and narrower when you Superodd specific things and leave specific things in the discard. And the other problem with Garde is like, you can't not discard attackers. Like, you could say like, oh, well, my Superodd is like, fine, because I just never discard my Screamtail, my Cress, my Mew, everything. I just keep them all in there. But there's no like, VIP. There's nothing in your deck other than like, VPs. I guess Poffins, sure, there's Poffins, but like, other than some Poffins and like, maybe like, an extra Artisan, there's nothing that intuitive discard. And so like, you are discarding Crest and Mew, like, early game, sometimes, like, and just Rodding at the perfect time, and like, that's the part where like, that's the counterplay, that's the intricacy. When Guardian commits Rods, they are playing face up, and when you pass the turn as like, a Guardian opponent, you're playing face up, and like, this this Balance is, like, the whole game.

Liam: 30:34

There's obviously some games that you can get away with just discarding like Pauvins and Energies, and those are the ones where you draw the best, right, but as with every deck, you have to make hard decisions at some point. Don't play the deck right. And yeah, it usually comes in the form of discarding attackers, right? Or discarding, like, supporters.

Abaan: 30:51

I think the first time we were jamming mirror games, I realized that, like, I didn't realize how cracked Crest was, and I just assumed I'd rot it later, and, like, when we got into those wars, like, I would often, like, need to find rods, like, an artist on my Crest, and I was thinking, like, like, that was something I was gonna focus on the next time we played the Guardian Mirrors, like, I think my Crest was, like, being thrown away to willy nilly. And I think I was actually hurting my win rate pretty significantly in the mirror.

Liam: 31:15

Yeah.

Abaan: 31:15

Unfortunately for Kobe, after I found that out, I I kept that information, I just, I was like, I was like, lit, I was so free, I was like, every game I was just hitting Crest at the end, like, when he was trying to Lick Guardi, and I was like, oh wow, this is like, genius, like, why didn't I just, It's so funny when you're like, a step ahead in like, learning, because, Your win rate isn't 50 50 at all. It's like, so favored to the guy who just like, is one step further in like, mirror, like, tech, if that makes sense. Like, because it'll always come down to the thing they prepped, and then they just like, do the thing, and then you're like, Okay, that's the, that's the first layer of mirror work. Now we like, now I have that in the back of my mind, now we have to like, build the next layer.

Liam: 31:52

Yeah.

Cameron: 31:54

And I think we were also talking about this in the Discord, like, what games count in our testing, and people were asking about it in our testing session, and it really does matter, like, where each player is at you kinda almost have to decide within the game, like, this one counts. Or, that this one doesn't, because maybe the person just doesn't know the deck, or is, maybe just doesn't see a line and you don't want to correct them in the moment, because you don't have that relationship or whatever, but,

Abaan: 32:24

I think the other thing is, I don't like correcting sometimes, because it's like what we talked about earlier. Yeah, exactly. No, this is my favorite saying, I love saying this all the time, but basically the point is like, I have certain recent things that I, like, it's about discarding lines, right? Like, I'm like, if someone does a line, and I'm like, oh no, I discarded that one, right? Then they're like, no, no, no, I think this and this, and I'm like, it's possible that when I did my evaluation that I discarded the line in, I was incorrect, and now if I tell you to change it, and then you just do the lines that I think are good, then like, what's the point? So then I'm like, okay, I don't want to, like, poison the well, like, let's play it out, but, Often, often I end up winning those games because I was right when I discarded them, but it's important because the times I'm wrong, we're like correcting a huge like, oversight that I've like, permanently been like, propagating in all my games. So it's like, important to just see it out sometimes, and then, what you're saying about what games count, I think one of the conclusions we came to is, I think like, if you're trying to get like, data type games, like, you do just need to have to play like, a set amount of like, data games, and like it's hard to say, like, a game should count, like, you, like, pick in the middle of it, but I think you should, like, start that a game should count, and then if something egregious happens, and, like, someone refuses to fix it or whatever, or, like, they want to, like, see it through, you can just discount it after, like, it's, like, clear that they were throwing, you know? Or, like, it ends up, like, not being good.

Liam: 33:41

I'm not a believer in the spreadsheet at all, I think like volume of games, I mean, the data can sometimes be useful, but I'm, I'm not a spreadsheet guy, of like, you know, here's the matchup numbers, here's what the expected win rate is for each deck. Aura.

Abaan: 33:59

Kind of, like, the thing that you're, like, tapping into that's, like, correct is, like, obviously, I think if, like, you told someone, like, oh, you have a 53 percent win rate with the deck, like, You can't be winning these tournaments with 53 percent winrate, like, if you're And 53 percent winrate is cracked. Because the reality is, like, a lot of those matchups that are, like, 55 45, maybe it is 55 45, but when you sit down and play it at a tournament, like, I think any matchup that's, like, 60 40 or better, it's, like, almost 100 0, like, in practice, in best 2 out of 3, like, I will just I will win that series, like, I I'll just find a way, like, there's just no way I'm losing, like, favoured matchups, like, I Look through my tournaments, I almost never lose, like, the favoured like, the Very tight ones are the slightly unfavorable ones. It just doesn't go my way, right?

Liam: 34:39

Yeah, the times you lose the favorite matchups, they're like, they're burned into your memory, right? It's like double bricking or something like that, right?

Abaan: 34:47

So then, like, if you took, like, the real, like, adjusted weighted stats, I'm sure your expected win rate's, like, crazy. It's, like, probably, if you could, every, like, let's say you, like, set every Zard I play against, like, back when Zard was the deck, it was, like, a 100 0 matchup because you just feel so confident you're going to beat it, right? Even if you're playing Zard yourself, like, you're just, like, I just win the mirror, like, 100 percent of the time. Then, like, your expected win rate into that meta would be, like, 70 75%, but, like, you'll never get that from a spreadsheet because it's kind of crazy to just be, like, yeah, I'm just going to, like Or I diff them and beat them so like I'm gonna put a hundred in the spot. That would make the spreadsheet like useless, right?

Liam: 35:20

yeah, yeah, exactly. I think the spreadsheet is not meant to pick up numbers like that, right? It's supposed to just, you know, raw track games, but I think it'd be interesting to run a spreadsheet where you only track games that are played for stakes. And not like, crazy like, you know, like 5 bucks or something like that. But like, when there's something on the line, that's

Abaan: 35:42

That's when Liam pops off, bro. Liam's been cleaning me out in these money matches, I have to admit. He brought like Frostblast, Lugia, Pidget, and like his own Bloklax knowing I was gonna bring Bloklax. We went to seven recently. I just want to bring that up. Bringing Frostblast was crazy work. I

Liam: 35:57

Yeah, it won the first time. I like, the, when there's, when there's something on the line, like, that's when, that's when, like, you're, like, you're trying, bro. You're, like, you're locked in. You're just, like, like, all of your willpower, every, every, like, fiber of your being is just, like, I have to win this thing, bro. And, like, that, that changes the way the games are played, bro. Like, it's different from when, like, When I'm just like jamming ladder or something like that, like when I'm actually like locked in, bro. It changes the way the games are played.

Abaan: 36:30

would, I want to say I'm mature enough to like Play certain testing games at that level, but you are right, like, obviously, like, there's a certain level that even that you're at a local or a cup for me, like, any match where, like, there's no, like, no do overs, you're just playing, it's like, it is different. And like, I'm trying way harder, and like, I think though, like, the most zen thing to do, it would be like, somehow, find a way to like, channel that like, intensity into every single game you play, and like, actually get value, but it's it's really hard to do it in

Liam: 36:59

I easiest way is just put five bucks on it. Just like, Well, something for stakes, bro. Like,

Abaan: 37:04

It's like, worth it, right? Like, in terms of like Especially with the world's prizing like if you actually can get up to your testing quality by that much like Assuming no one is winning like a thousand zero like and like it's like relatively even it's literally just worth the money It's probably worth

Liam: 37:16

you're probably going relatively even, right? So like,

Cameron: 37:20

you're testing with other good players, you should probably be

Liam: 37:22

and like, this is done with, like, your friends, right? So they're probably, like, around your level, usually. And,

Abaan: 37:30

but it'd be kind of annoying if like you're trying to test the matchup where like one person is clearly favored And you're like, yeah, let's keep putting five on it and I'll keep playing this side

Liam: 37:37

Oh, sure. Yeah, I guess, yeah, that would be it's pretty bad. I've only ever played for stakes, like, I guess the stuff that we've played, and then when I intensely disagree with Jake Earhart. Dude, let me tell you

Abaan: 37:48

the matchup?

Cameron: 37:49

No, no, no,

Abaan: 37:50

Yeah. No, tell the story,

Cameron: 37:51

no. Don't tell the story. We're 40 minutes in. We've talked about Guardi as our testing. Before you go tell a story, is there any other deck? That we've been testing, that we

Abaan: 38:00

All right. All right. All right Let's talk about Xard, Shinoi. Everyone understands what you're getting at here.

Cameron: 38:05

No, I mean, there's a lot of other decks, there's a lot of other decks.

Abaan: 38:09

It's a lot of time before Worlds, like this is the Guardi

Cameron: 38:11

I know, I know, I know that you, I know you and me have been playing Guardi a lot.

Liam: 38:22

those are the

Abaan: 38:22

Dude I've been like coming back around on Pidget, but I didn't want to say anything in the chat until I win my cup, and then I can start talking about it, you know? I gotta win the Lakewood Cup on Sunday, and then I'll start telling everyone what I'm thinking.

Liam: 38:35

is such a trap, bro, cause like, it just feels so good. It's like actually, oh my god, once you get the Pidget up, you actually just, you beat so much stuff, bro. It's I, every time I play that card I think about, I think it's a Tord quote. I don't know if I've said it before to y'all at least, but the player who wins the games, the player who has access to quick search. Like, that player is just always winning because

Abaan: 39:05

thought this was gonna be like a life quote or something, like the player who wins the game, like, drew better or something, or like, I don't even know, like, I don't know what you thought I was gonna say, but no, it's literally just about Pidget.

Liam: 39:14

yeah, it's like, it just feels true, like, everything you want to do, you can do when you have access to Pidgin. And like,

Abaan: 39:22

And like, when Intel Format, was it like, whatever,

Liam: 39:24

right?

Abaan: 39:25

what, during Intel Format, it was like, the person who wins the game is the person who gets to, like, Intelli on more times for more cards, like, is that just like a format changing quote?

Liam: 39:33

No,

Abaan: 39:34

format he has like a new card.

Liam: 39:37

I think I mean, maybe, I have no idea, but,

Abaan: 39:40

I think it's just funny. I thought it was funny that you said this is a Tord quote.

Liam: 39:43

strictly true,

Cameron: 39:44

Whenever you can do a broken thing more times than your opponent, it's usually pretty good.

Liam: 39:49

yeah,

Abaan: 39:50

Write that down. That's a, that's a Shinoi quote.

Liam: 39:52

Pidget,

Abaan: 39:54

Actually no, Shinoi's quote is this. It's like, anytime you could stop your opponent from doing anything, it's probably pretty good. He wants

Cameron: 40:00

the shit I quote.

Liam: 40:02

I love that. hmm.

Abaan: 40:08

to do one quick search and they need to do zero, and that's like, that's how he gets them. Loves his Iron Thorns.

Cameron: 40:18

yeah, Bizarre has been pretty good, there's, and Pidget in general is pretty good. We, I think we all have like, there's just unlimited possibilities, there's no real one list. You can go super hard control where, you know, you have like a Luxray EX and Luxray V, and maybe no Charizard, you could have a 1 1 Charizard. You could have a multi Charizard with Dusknoir

Abaan: 40:39

Even within Charizard, there's like a thousand options, like, I think that, I was pigeonholed too hard in this Dusknoir thing, and like, it's good, it's for sure good, but I was talking to Kobe about it, and like, in general, like, I think there's maybe, like, the Eleki Zard list I was playing at Orlando, like, something like that could be, like, modified a bit. I think maybe a list with, like, the Dark Package could be interesting, like, the Poison stuff, like, I I think that Zard, like, we all saw that Japanese Duskner list, we all played it, and it was like, this is solid, and, like, that kind of is, like, where a lot of people stopped, and I think that's very limiting, and, like, that's not That's

Liam: 41:13

Yeah, dude, anytime I see, like the, like, a Zard list from, like, this format pre Duskner, I'm like, oh my god, y'all have, like, actually so much space. Just, like, play every card you want to play

Cameron: 41:25

I mean, there's the, I think, I think, like, Barbaro and Fezendipity was something I was locked on, and then I, like, tried one game without it, and then all of a sudden I was like, oh, this is, like, not bad, still, and I have these other options, so I'm sure, like, you just can't fall in love with, like, slots this early, especially in decks like Zard, like, oh, what if I just try without it, and then it's, the deck's still broken, it's just broken in a slightly different way,

Abaan: 41:50

Like, even with the Dusklops thing, like, the only reason I think the Duskmortalists, like, can, like, smash mirror in ways that didn't exist before is because you can go Dusklops CC ban, kill a Pidget, like, out of nowhere, before anything happens, right? And, like, this is the first time ever in Zardmir that you could, like, kill a Pidget, but without your opponent, like, actively deciding for you to be allowed to, if that makes sense. Like, this is, like, you can, like, do it without, like, anyone, like, without their, like, Say, right? Like, normally, like, you have the other Zard player has to take two prizes, and then you could, like, max spell, or, like, three prizes in Defiant Spin. This is the first time where, like, it doesn't matter, like, if I set up good, I can just kill your Pidget. But I think, like, people are forgetting, like, what we learned at the end of, like, that Charizard mirror format, where it was, like, Yeah, sure, I could kill Pidget, but I think demoing over and over again and making it so that you just, like, aren't allowed to Pidget is, like, pretty valid, too. And I think the thing, though, is, like, I think a lot of people eventually will come to that conclusion, and so, like, the sauce might be, like, just play a Mist Energy. Just put the Mist Energy back in. That card is just good. And, like, everyone's cutting E Hammer for some reason.

Cameron: 42:50

yeah, it's, it's been feeling like that, like, more and more that I've, like, I've been wanting a Myst. Does,

Abaan: 42:56

Mist, right? Just first Pidget first Pidget for the Mist. Good luck. I have Quick Search. Tord quote.

Cameron: 43:03

Does, Are you guys playing Hammer? In the Henry Chow list? I don't think so, right?

Abaan: 43:06

Nope, we got it.

Liam: 43:08

Yeah.

Abaan: 43:08

I didn't, I didn't decide. Henry did.

Liam: 43:10

No, that was me. Oh.

Abaan: 43:12

wait, what? Henry Chow didn't say to cut the e hammer? What the hell?

Cameron: 43:17

You know Liam always changes one

Liam: 43:18

I guess he went along with it, but yeah, I that's all I said I did.

Abaan: 43:22

Oh my god. I thought Henry, this was Henry Approved, giving me my e hammer back. This whole time I wanted an e hammer, and I was like, oh, Henry said no.

Liam: 43:32

it's kinda Henry approved.

Abaan: 43:34

Alright. Can I get that in writing? Maybe a screenshot or something?

Liam: 43:36

yeah, yeah, let me go take a look see.

Abaan: 43:39

Can't be passing off the list with like, Ah, dude, this is why I should've messaged Henry directly. This whole time, by the way, we've been, like, Talking about the Henry Chao list. It's all because Liam messaged him on Twitter And has been passing, like, the messages along To, like, me and, like, some of my friends. So,

Liam: 43:52

yeah, bro,

Abaan: 43:53

we're all, like, We're all hearing Henry's words through Liam And I didn't realize that Liam in the middle was, like, changing stuff and

Liam: 43:59

What's bro?!

Abaan: 44:00

messenger.

Liam: 44:01

Oh my god. No,

Abaan: 44:08

I think also the Shinoi was talking or testing more with the No Unfezant, No Bib, Alekki list, and I will say that Bazzard without Alekki and Eerie type stuff, like, I think the Bax matchup is really bad, and like, the problem is, like, this is where Spreadsheet helps organize your thoughts. You have to, like, you you're gonna lose to some things, and so it's very annoying. if like in all your conversations like about a deck someone just brings up your worst matchup right and like the way to like kind of circumvent that is to write on a spreadsheet like what you think the expected meta share is that way you can be like look like i i i projected backs to be this much if you think it's gonna be more then we can talk about it more but like If it's at this percentage, it's clearly not affecting my expected win rate. Like, that's where spreadsheets matter. It's like, it's like a way to, like, police these, like, circular conversations that literally go, like, nowhere. Because every time you bring up a change, it's like, well, it hurts X matchup and helps Y matchup, and, like, that's useless. Like, I, like, then we can't play anything. Like, nothing beats everything everything. Like, there's gonna be some bad matchup

Cameron: 45:04

I think the meta share part is like almost half, like half of it, if not even more. It's so important to it. To deciding it. Because that's what you're trying to look at, right? Is, I think, a big part of it. Like, what everyone thinks the meta share is going to be. And I've been in There have been times where we've guessed pretty correct.

Abaan: 45:25

I'm seeing the thumbs up in the chat from the screenshot, so this is Henry Chao approved, okay. I'm glad that I'm gonna trust you more, Liam, but I hope that anything else you tell me from Henry Chao isn't poisoned by you.

Liam: 45:35

I'm the person who did the thumbs up, bro, like what? I'm

Abaan: 45:41

thought that was, like, a message from him. I'm aware. Oh, okay, I just misread the thing. Oh, okay, okay. Whatever, the point is, as long as, like, you're telling Henry about our changes and, like, he doesn't vehemently hate them,

Liam: 45:51

yes, that's, that's what I mean when I say it's like Henry approved, but like. He didn't specifically say he was, like, you know, cutting the e hammer as well, but

Abaan: 45:58

But it's, like, the meta thing, right? Like, dude, I hope this, like, the problem is that Worlds, somehow, without any tournaments, we're still cycling in the meta. And, like, now, it's, like, I feel like, or maybe this is, like, Very, like, because of I'm very local centric, but it just feels like, oh, people are already realizing D. Va's pretty good, and then we're gonna put Mist back in Zard, and then it's like, damn, do I have to put the E Hammer back in, and then, it's like this whole, like, meta that's happening, and like, no turnovers are even happening, it's just like, verbally,

Liam: 46:24

No, yeah, bro, it's because everybody is actually, like, aggressively testing for worlds right now. Or, like, not everybody, of course, but a lot of the people, at least I know. And so, like, you know, they're, they're learning stuff at, like, relatively the same rate, right?

Cameron: 46:37

you just, you just feel it every time you test with like a different person. You're like, oh okay, you've also made this change, or you've made I

Abaan: 46:45

thing, subtle, that I wanted to share, like, with, I don't know, I, I think it's like, find a leak, cause like, it's not even very well planned. Like, proven, but like, the new hourglass tool in Regidrago, it actually like, I was testing the Guardian matchup versus Regidrago, and like, the problem was like, when Regidrago actually used one of their bigger packs like Raging Bolt or Kiram, it would run out of energy, right? And so

Liam: 47:07

funny. Yeah, I see.

Abaan: 47:09

you just rip the hourglass and get energies back, and like, Because sometimes they'd Kirim you, for all three of your like, Curlias and Ralts or whatever, and you still don't lose, because you're just Ioto and Superodd, and like, build it back up, but if they have the Hourglass, you are, it's over. You are losing that game for sure.

Liam: 47:24

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think if you get the Drago list right, I don't even think it's about like, like the Drago sustainability is like, so, it's so hopeless, bro. It's like,

Cameron: 47:36

Nah, but

Liam: 47:36

they get a Guardia EX up, it just

Abaan: 47:38

Without the Hourglass, they had like, it felt like it was extremely favored, but with the Hourglass, I, I said, they have legs, like, they have good starts, like, they have good catcher cologne on your like,

Liam: 47:46

Maybe. Actually, yeah, I think, I actually didn't think about that, because getting to four is actually like, not even bad for them, right? Retreats are so valuable.

Abaan: 47:55

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, the Regiroggos got stuck often, yeah, the Hourglasses, like, yeah, they put in a lot more work than you'd think, right? Because if you can ever, like, save E Switches, and, like, you can, it's just, the problem that they often have is, like, E Switches is such a taxed resource that if they ever use one of the Discord energy attacks, you're, like, are, they're so vulnerable to, like, CC Screamtail, and to, like, another CC or something, like, you can make, make them move really hard, or, like, if they ever have to use the, the V Star for something frivolous, then, like, it's kind of, like, the Guardian committing super odd thing, like, If they use the V Star, it's over.

Cameron: 48:25

It's a waterfall

Liam: 48:26

and they have to,

Cameron: 48:27

to use it less early and then

Liam: 48:29

they have to V Star to attack, like, quickly, like, so much more often than they'd like to, because yes, like, if they're able to save the V Star. And, like, if they can take their first two prizes before they hit the V Star, they're, like, always winning. Like, the deck is, like,

Cameron: 48:45

The deck, that deck has been

Abaan: 48:47

Yeah, if the V Star is saved and they're Iono, it doesn't even matter. The V Star is so broken. But if they ever just use the V Star to, like, do something, you you, like, you're already,

Liam: 48:56

deck no longer works. Like, they run out of gas as soon as they hit the V Star. like, the last thing they're gonna do all game, basically, right? And,

Abaan: 49:05

But I think that

Liam: 49:06

if they're able to hold off on that for just a little bit, they usually get there.

Abaan: 49:11

I think the problem, though, is that, like, if they draw cards in the right order, like, the problem the reason why they have to V Star is when they just draw, like, the E Switches in the Squaw Can, and then they draw, like, the The cards they want to pre squawk and the post squawk hand, but like, we didn't play enough games to really know how often this happens, but if they just draw cards in the right order, like, they're seeing, like, their discardable cards in the first hand, and like, cards that are kind of

Liam: 49:30

I don't know, I've played a lot of Drago now, it never happens, because like,

Abaan: 49:34

Oh, alright, that's, like, what I was

Liam: 49:35

energy down too, they have to get the energy and the Teal Mask down before the E Switch is turned on, and like, it's just a lot, like, the times that doesn't happen, and then the times that they also just open like, completely dead, it is a super high number of games, like, this, The turn 2 Drago without using the V Star is like it's just never happening.

Abaan: 49:59

One thing, Liam, I was wondering about, is that I wanted to test a lot more, like, whenever we got the chance, is I think Block Lock's for Scarty. I think it's very reductive, what people say about it, like, the get this perfect board, like, I think we both agree that, like, the even one fan just kind of ruins that plan. And, like We've been talking about Vacuum and Guardi for two reasons, because like, then you can ARVN for Vacuum Devo against Jamming Tower, which is like, kind of nice, and like, also get rid of Fan, but like, let's say like, we're in a no Vacuum world I think there's a lot more to be explored about the Guardi vs Blocklax matchup. I think that, that Exodia board is like, kind of fake, but I think there's a, there has to be very efficient ways to play the matchup that I haven't really like, fleshed

Liam: 50:36

I, I mean, we've played it, and I started out by not playing the Exodia board, because yeah, I thought the going for the, the board lock is, is literally just walking right into it. Like, you give them setup, you give them targets, and, and like, the board doesn't work, right? Like, your whole idea just fails. But, yeah, I mean, the matchup is just, it's just not very good, like

Abaan: 51:10

the best suggestions, but I think there has to be a way to, like, go pretty aggressive, but then maybe, like, fill up your bench with, like, cards that are reasonable, Because you, you really don't want like, true bricks like Greninja

Liam: 51:20

Dude, I, I don't, I don't think you can, I don't think you can fill the bench. Like, I think, I think your best winning chances are from deny targets the flutes miss. The and you're fine midway the Arica targets,

Abaan: 51:32

yeah, I see, but like, the problem is like, you only have two Ultra Ball, right, so it's like, sometimes like, the last refinement either finds the thing you want, or like, the Eerie, the Ultra Balls, or like, first, and also like, if you're not being proactive about searching out these Pokemon, like, it's very awkward to like, Discard them, like, or like, it's, it's weird, like, you have to basically find the Pokemon you want to discard in the first two refinements, and then start refining them in the end. Like, you know what's actually weirdly helpful? Irida is pretty helpful in that matchup. Like, getting to search, like, Manaphy or Greninja for free, like, it's, it's hard to find what you're saying. Like, the flutes just have good chances to hit. Good

Liam: 52:05

yes, they do, and that's why I think the matchup is not good, like, you don't have a way to stop them from filling your board, and then, once your board is filled, I don't, like, people have obviously tried to come up with like the checkmate solution, or whatever, a way to fill a board and not lose the game, but it doesn't, it doesn't work. The fan is like, it's just too strong.

Abaan: 52:25

I think if we, the situation I was thinking about earlier with the Klefki versus the Mimikyu, the thing about the Mimikyu is like, I hate the card, but I keep playing matchups where it ends up being pretty good. Like, because I'm playing a lot of this format without the Stretcher bundle, like, it's great against Raging Bull. I think it just gets faker and faker, though. I guess, as people play Stretcher bundle in the, in the Shrouded Fable format, like, this Mimikyu card can't be that good. I just refuse to believe it, you know? I just don't think it's good. But in the meantime, like, I've been playing Mimikyu, and I think that If I played Klefki in that spot, like, potentially, like, you could get to the Exodia board with two flutters, the Klefki, I think you could even have Mew EX as one of your benchmark one, I was thinking about it, because it's like one of the few things that uses Dark. And then like, obviously Agharti, and then maybe like one

Liam: 53:11

Oh sure, and you can like double dark it, right? Yeah,

Abaan: 53:15

And the thing about Mew EX is that, if they have Fan, you're killing it, right? Like, you can kill Mimikyu and Blocklax with Fan, and then if they have a tool, like a Bravery Charm or something, that's fine, you're just hitting them for 150, like, that's a good amount.

Liam: 53:27

I don't

Abaan: 53:27

I think the secret is, you're not allowed to hit into the Fan. I think you have to Turo every time you see a Fan, and then just make them, like, Make them prove that they can actually cycle enough fans to win.

Liam: 53:38

There's some moments where it's fine to hit into the fan, like if you haven't hit with the Guardi EX yet or something, like if your energy are spreading away where there's only good targets on the bench, it's fine,

Abaan: 53:48

Oh, I think it's always fine to kill the fan. Like, that's what I'm saying, you

Liam: 53:52

No, no, no, I mean like, if you have like a Guardi EX and it doesn't have three energy on it, and then your board is like, you know, Flutter, Flutter, Klefki, Mu EX, Routes or whatever, it's fine to teleportation burst and burn the Gus, because the energy is going somewhere that's fine. Like,

Abaan: 54:11

I see. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, as long as it's going to specifically one of the things that have the ability, which, like, clef key letter, that's retreatable. Mew, assuming that doesn't have three

Liam: 54:20

like somewhere it's supposed to be, right?

Abaan: 54:23

Yeah, essentially, yeah. That makes sense.

Liam: 54:25

yeah. Those spots aren't like super common, right? But yeah.

Abaan: 54:30

I think one fact, though, already makes it, like, very difficult. I don't even know if they're playing 2 fan. And, like, their deck is so I think the matchup is bad, but I think that there's ways to, as the Guardi player, to play it at such a high level that, like, you're making it very difficult for them to actually have all the things that they're saying they need to have, you know? Like, cycling these fans, like, and maybe it comes down to, like, a

Liam: 54:52

There's a lot of pressure on their supporters. There's a lot of pressure on their supporters,

Abaan: 54:56

Not to mention, like, they can't really be road ombing that much, because, like, boss road omb knockout is, like, very strong. If you, if they don't have the tool on, but, like, yeah,

Liam: 55:05

Yeah, I think

Abaan: 55:05

if they can switch the force, Yeah, if they can switch the forest off and get a bravery charm or something, it's already, like, very annoying that they can do that, right?

Liam: 55:14

Sure.

Abaan: 55:42

If I can just like, think beyond that level, then like, maybe even if the matchup is unfavoured on paper, if they know what to do, it might actually be like, practically like, very good chances, right? Oh, but I wanted to hear about your story with Jart, though, of course, like, or if I don't even know what the story is, like, before we forget.

Liam: 55:56

I'm in. I'll never forget. Well, at least for like the next like week. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Jake and I were talking. Obviously we're thinking about running back Guardi for Worlds. Jake's been playing Guardi for a year, non stop. Last Worlds, he played Guardi as well. He went 0 3 drop. And he was talking about it and he was like, dude, I hit a double crest. Drifloon, Bravery, Charm, Gardevoir. This was last year. This was when Reversal was in format, right?

Abaan: 56:27

yeah

Liam: 56:27

And he was like, this actually swings the matchup because they can, they can one hit my Guardia EX while ahead. Like, I don't know what he was on, right? And so I told him that. I said, brother, I'm never losing to a deck like that. This is what it means to have aura. Like, Jake is somebody who's obviously, like, if you know him at all, you know he's like, The definition of a math guy, right? He's a numbers guy. That's like literally his thing, right? And like, he's like, concretely, like, the double crest with the drift wound, the bravery charm, it just like, it swings the match up, and like, you know, he's just saying all this, and like, I'm looking at all these factors, and yes, they like exist. Like, Jake is He's not a liar. Those factors do exist. But I'm like, that deck sucks. And, if I was playing a good Gardevoir deck, like Jake said he had last year, I wouldn't lose to that. So, we we played for like 10 bucks. He was playing Doublecrest, Drifloon, Bravery Charm, Gardey. I was playing like, one card off Tord's list. He made me cut the VAC so that the Bravery Charm stuff worked. He never used the Bravery Charm, Drifloon. That card was terrible. The second Crest was okay, but yeah, in the end, he ended up he got to win 100 percent win position. I 2 0'd him, so like, maybe I get him, you know, in game 3, but he got to win 100 percent win position, but he missed it. I, I ran out of energy. It's really weird playing that deck without Toro, after playing with Toro for like, 6 months or something. But yeah, I like, I committed all my energy, and I was like, wait, I can just like, if he just goes like you know, like, boss Mew, and then hit for 40, I just lose. He, he didn't realize that either though. So he ended up losing. I was like, you know, all the numbers, they tell you you're in a hundred percent win position here. Right. This is, this is winning by the numbers or up. Like, geez, bro. I

Abaan: 58:15

No, I mean, this is, you're actually touching on a very important topic,

Liam: 58:18

come out of top.

Abaan: 58:19

if there was a chess evaluator, it's like funny, because like, it's like a hundred, it's 100 percent winning, but in practice the other guy would win like 99 percent of the time, because like, I was talking to Cal about this actually, like right when I first came back to this game at Pittsburgh, and he he told me like, yeah I just like, sometimes I was like, I'm like, I can never win this game. Like, in paper, I can never win this game. Because if I actually use my last attacker, I have no energies and they can boss my chops and I'll deck out. But I don't, like, just, like, concede. I'm gonna do the thing and make them, like, like, find the line, right? And, like, most of the time, like, someone hits you and, like, you're just like, well, gotta find the trade knockout, and then, like, Then they whiff the knockout, they like, use their support for turns so they can't boss Archeops as their last ditch effort. And the thing is, like, this isn't, like, should it be a real factor? In theory, all winning and losing lines should be created equal, right? But I do think there's some value in recognizing, like, the average, like, player base and knowing that, like, some lines, like, Sometimes you can take a line that loses 100 percent to this line that's so obscure that it's fine. Like, you just, you just take that loss on the chain if they find it, but you don't want to lose to the play that's 100 percent in their face obvious. Like, you don't want the, like, the hitting each other war to be unfavored for you, if possible, right? Because, like, that's a line they can find for sure. Like, you'll, you'll, like, never win a game because they refuse to hit you. You'll sometimes win a game where they refuse to, like, gust deck you out. At a good spot.

Liam: 59:44

I think. I would give my opponents as much credit as possible. I don't want to, I don't want to lose because my opponent played well. I don't want to lose because

Abaan: 59:51

This is only talking about in a situation where you're already losing either way, and you have to pick between which line you have to display to them.

Liam: 59:59

it as difficult as possible, but yeah, I wouldn't if I, I

Abaan: 1:00:01

You should never take a winning position and do what I'm saying. I'm just saying that like, you should take like, if you have to choose between two losing positions, in theory, right, like if I'm talking to a robot, it's, it's the same, it's the exact same. But in practice, it's like, some losing positions are harder to like, execute on.

Liam: 1:00:17

But I think the more interesting question is what if one, What if the easier, or the harder one to spot has a higher chance of losing? Like, slightly higher, but higher chance of losing.

Abaan: 1:00:30

I, I think this is the part that you're like not supposed to like do, but I, I definitely do. I do just kind of make like a, like a player read, like I, I think about what they've like said during the game and how they've been playing their cards, you know, and like,

Liam: 1:00:41

If they said this was my first regional, you'd say, Ooh,

Abaan: 1:00:44

yeah, ooh, I guess I'll use my last energy, no worries. If they're like, I've been playing since 2016, I'm like I'll just rip the IONO. Like, hope you miss it. Yeah, I think that's like the part that like, I don't know, I think, I don't know how many people say they do it, but like, I think a lot of, I think most people do it. Players who've like, played these regionals a lot, like, you don't want to like, specifically, like, no one's going to know that you like, made this player read and like, maybe you're like, a little bit like, you weren't supposed to, but like, you just kind of knew they weren't going to find it, like, it's fine, like, sometimes, like, that's, you just want to maximize your practical win rate, right? You want to maximize your actual, like, how many times you sign a win on the slip. You don't need to like, maximize like, if they were the perfect player, how often would

Liam: 1:01:27

Jay completely disagrees, he would never, never go for the practical winrate

Abaan: 1:01:32

exactly. That's why you 2 0'd them, bro. That's why you got

Liam: 1:01:35

yeah, we had a we actually had like an hour long discussion after that talking about Aura and all that stuff, but one of the, one of the things that came up, which was, was interesting to me at least I, I just forgot, oh,

Abaan: 1:01:50

forgot the point.

Liam: 1:01:51

Yeah, so what we were talking about earlier with the eval bar, I think a lot of games, or much more than people expect, or at least talk about, is they have massive shifts at the end of the game, constantly back and forth, right? Like I go from like an 100 percent winning position, to I refinement my psychic energy away so I can no longer retreat my Mew, to a 100 percent losing position, but then Jake misses that, and then I go back to 100 percent winning, or something. Like, I think, I think those kinds of shifts actually happen, like, way more at the end of the game, especially because your, like, sequencing decisions have such drastic impacts on your win percentage. Like, if you, if you thin two less cards out of your like five card deck you go from like 66 percent odds to win to like 40 percent odds to win or something like that like that's like a 25 percent shift in who's winning the game so like those like massive shifts in win percentage happen all the time

Abaan: 1:02:56

Yeah, and I think the most interesting factor about that too is like, it's funny like, yeah, in theory you're winning with your hand, but like, a lot of times the line is like, it's so weird, like you have to, I think the reason the eval bar is impossible is because sometimes it actually comes down to like, whether or not XYZ is prized and like, what's the correct thing to play for that's prized and like, so it's like, okay, let's say like, you'd have to like, look through a million scenarios where it's like, okay, imagine like, this was like, this could be a prize card, then like this line, makes it so that if this thing is prized, then like, I have a 70 percent chance to win. So then you have to multiply those two chances together, like what are the odds that this thing was prized in the first place, times like the 70 percent I win if it is prized. And then it's like, versus a different line where like something else is prized, so like maybe it's less like, maybe that's a one off, so there's less chance it's prized, but your chance to win is like higher when it's prized. So then you have to multiply those together, and like that's why the eval bar, like it's, it would be crazy like to actually like ever implement something like that, right? Because like, a lot of times those last when you truly want to win, you do just often have to be like, This ridiculous saying, like, both, like, both his last few prizes are both psychic or something. Something very, like, very hard to call out, but he's like, I'm not gonna just lose, like, I'm gonna at least, like,

Liam: 1:04:06

make this guy show me that they have a psychic energy, right? I, dude, that was, that's something that I'm like always shocked whenever I lose to, like, an actual just, like, checkmate position. Because, like, usually, like, 99. 9 percent of games, you can get them to a spot where it's like, you have to show me something to win, right? Like, even if it's just energy, even if it's, you know, like,

Abaan: 1:04:28

Boss, it's often boss.

Liam: 1:04:30

right? Like, yeah, show me something to win. Right? I, I'm always, like, shocked any time I get into, like, an actual, just, like, raw checkmate.

Abaan: 1:04:40

I, yeah, they, they are, they come so few and far between. Like, I can honestly, like, I could say in the last two months, I could probably count on, like, one hand how many times I've been, like, truly checkmated. Like, there, nothing needs to be seen on board, except There is an exception to be made where it's like sometimes you're losing extremely hard and then like you play something like Iono or something like that and then like you don't hit your like CC or something or like a way to retreat and then the thing that's active just dies and then you're like okay I guess I'm checkmated but it's like start of turn checkmates are so rare like you start the turn and you have no outs

Liam: 1:05:13

Yeah, no, exactly, right? Like, if you have a chance to rip away to win, that's, that's fine as well, right? But yeah, like,

Abaan: 1:05:23

like often you end the turn losing on board but it's hard to start the turn losing on board right

Liam: 1:05:28

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Alright,

Abaan: 1:05:30

funny too. you Oh, sure. One last thing, it was like, it was so funny, at my cup, he didn't know that Mew EX was weak to dark, and so I actually was like, I saw that there's like a chance that he could like, boss To go to her game, so I actually like wanted to win first, so I actually went like, Mew EX, draw for two, trying to find CC for a game. Or no, I had to find a stadium for a game. So I could use Roaring Moon's attack with Mew EX, right? So I was like, okay, I'll I'll Mew for it, right? I missed it. And then he bossed my Guardian and used He didn't have stadium either, so he just bossed my Guardian and used the Calamity Storm, and I actually beat a Lost Fox with Roaring Moon in Sudden Death, and I was just thinking like, Heh. That was crazy, just playing to my outs. I just like, he showed the boss and I still didn't move. Like, most of the time, I would just like, scoop out my cards instantly, right? But he like, showed the boss and then I was like, oh man, he got it. And he picked up the Guardi was like, wait, maybe his Stadium, this is like an extended BM. And then he was like, frenzy gouging. And I was like, oh wow, playing to your outs, just like, sitting still and like, letting them throw. That's my out. But like, it works sometimes, you know?

Liam: 1:06:30

I that is, that's insane

Abaan: 1:06:32

Crazy out.

Liam: 1:06:33

yeah. I

Abaan: 1:06:35

Because I hit

Liam: 1:06:36

I wonder if I miss out on those outs more than I should. Like, I assume there are like some locals warriors who are just, they've mastered the art of, yeah, just sitting there like stone faced in the

Abaan: 1:06:47

it's game right?

Liam: 1:06:48

on board,

Abaan: 1:06:49

yeah. Yeah.

Liam: 1:06:50

And like,

Cameron: 1:06:52

No,

Liam: 1:06:53

I wonder, I wonder if they're picking up wins that I've missed.

Cameron: 1:06:56

yeah, dude, well, especially at locals, and I think even at, like, regionals,

Abaan: 1:07:00

Round 1. Round 1. I'm undefeated in round 1 of regionals. I've literally never lost a round

Liam: 1:07:04

Shinoa's mastered this tactic. That's how he starts off 5 0 every, every time. He's

Cameron: 1:07:10

Well, especially,

Liam: 1:07:11

on these kids. Dude,

Cameron: 1:07:14

of formats and I play rogue decks and it's just like, oh, you just fucking Charizard

Liam: 1:07:19

Yeah. The

Cameron: 1:07:24

but alright, I guess and he's just like, oh, I guess I scoop. Or another guy going countercounter your Ironthorns. Oh shit, I forgot to Gardevoir before counter catching your Iron Thorns. I scoop. Like, it happens, it's crazy work, especially when people

Abaan: 1:07:37

I can't, I can't lie, the Fluttermane thing, it gets me, like, to this day. Like, Fluttermane is the most hard thing for me to remember. Like, I'm constantly retreating to my Lone Guard of War first, I'm doing all this like, like, aw man, dude, Fluttermane just gets me. Like, every time. Do you remember that one play I had to, like, retreat, like, monkey from the bench, then, like, retreat, like, monkey again? Like, this Flutterman thing is, like, inconveniencing me on a daily basis. I hate Flutterman.

Liam: 1:08:00

gets crazy, bro.

Abaan: 1:08:01

Especially when you're playing Guardian, like, everything has an ability.

Cameron: 1:08:05

I think I realized, I think I realized that the very first cup I ever won, and Keone was talking to me, and I was about to scoop finals, cause I was playing Buzzwole against Maldemar. And the two people prior to me, like, just made bad misplays, and I won. And I was like, I should just scoop and we can go home, right? And he's like, no, no, play it out and see if you make a mistake. And he made a mistake, and I was like, holy shit, all these people just make, just like throw, bro.

Liam: 1:08:30

Yeah,

Abaan: 1:08:32

The one time I've ever actually considered scooping, and I did it, and I wish I did, was against Cameron Kawasaki. He was playing Fusion Mute, I was playing Urshi, and I was like, should I just scoop so we can go home? And I was like, ah, nah, he might make, like, I don't think Cameron's a bad player, but I was like, ah, what? Like, I had the same mindset, like, I'm gonna make them prove it. He beat me in ten minutes, like, I think he dogged me one of the games. I was like, well, I guess we didn't waste too much time.

Cameron: 1:08:53

I guess he proved it.

Abaan: 1:08:55

He proved it. But yeah, you were under wrap up.

Liam: 1:08:59

I mean, we've been going for an hour somehow, we did it again. Alright yeah, I think that's a good place to leave it, we'll be back next week with more Henry Chow glaze, the usual. All right, John Paul's our